Aircraft coming towards you on base leg.
PPRuNe's favourite BABE!!
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If I was under ATC, I'd expect the controller to give avoiding action, but if he/she was indecisive, I'd keep a very sharp lookout and be prepared to see and avoid, including configuring the a/c for a quick evasion.
If your vfr you wont get avoiding action!! All we will do is pass traffic info as much as possible. Afraid to say but its see and be seen up there!!
Having said that if I really thought you were gonna hit I would say something!!!
The trouble is if its unknown traffic then its path is unknown, and we could make it worse by turning you into its path
Different story if you ifr, then your seperation is my responsability and I would certainly give avoiding action. However I would try not to get you that close in the first place to have to avoid!!
Also depends on what airspace your in. If class E then more likely for unknown traffic. If class D then shouldnt be unknown traffic there, although that does not always hold true
So tell us aerbabe sis, what did you do?
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I was in the late stages of training done all the tests, and just getting the last couple of solo hours at Liverpool.
The TOWER told me to line up and hold on the runway, as I checked the approach I was astonished to see a Cessna about half a mile out on very short final
I then told the tower about the aircraft on very very short finals, and her reply was it was going around.
She then gave the go around I say again go around call to the Cessna.
This taught me a valuble lesson..no matter WHO tells me its ok including my mum, I will if possible check again and again and agin...
The TOWER told me to line up and hold on the runway, as I checked the approach I was astonished to see a Cessna about half a mile out on very short final
I then told the tower about the aircraft on very very short finals, and her reply was it was going around.
She then gave the go around I say again go around call to the Cessna.
This taught me a valuble lesson..no matter WHO tells me its ok including my mum, I will if possible check again and again and agin...
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ATCBabe
Just for my edification, if I'm VFR on base leg in your circuit, would you expect me to take my own avoiding action, even if it meant over riding your last clearance and impacting your mental game of chess?
This is not a sarky comment, two light aircraft could well be closing at 4 NM per minute and that's 30 seconds to impact in Aerbabe's scenario.
If you didn't give me avoiding action wihtin seconds, I would not hesitate to safeguard my a/c (as I am obliged to) and then that could cause you a headache.
Just for my edification, if I'm VFR on base leg in your circuit, would you expect me to take my own avoiding action, even if it meant over riding your last clearance and impacting your mental game of chess?
This is not a sarky comment, two light aircraft could well be closing at 4 NM per minute and that's 30 seconds to impact in Aerbabe's scenario.
If you didn't give me avoiding action wihtin seconds, I would not hesitate to safeguard my a/c (as I am obliged to) and then that could cause you a headache.
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Doesn't just happen to us GA'ers.
I was at Hawarden once, when a BAe 146 on Final decided to go around.
Halfway down the active runway, he banked right and carved straight through the middle of the downwind leg - which had 2 cessna's on it at the time....
whoooops!
I was at Hawarden once, when a BAe 146 on Final decided to go around.
Halfway down the active runway, he banked right and carved straight through the middle of the downwind leg - which had 2 cessna's on it at the time....
whoooops!
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My story...
Well..flying around in my flying machine 8 AM,10 of us from the club all shot off early to do solo practise,others went to do x-country flights.
Then Embry Riddle invaded and at least 6 of them came and joined the circuit. ..so it was busy,like rush hour!!
So,flying along on downwind,doing my checks,turning base,and I see this seneca circling at about 500 ft the underneath guys on final,waiting for a gap.
Now the Florida catch 22,if you extend base or go above 1200 ft you bust Daytona airspace so your commited to turning base.
Unicom frequency,no ATC,about 3 instructors telling the a$$hole to wake up and join the circuit jamming up the frequency so you can`t ask him his intentions,and cannot announce your on final.
That spooked me.
Well..flying around in my flying machine 8 AM,10 of us from the club all shot off early to do solo practise,others went to do x-country flights.
Then Embry Riddle invaded and at least 6 of them came and joined the circuit. ..so it was busy,like rush hour!!
So,flying along on downwind,doing my checks,turning base,and I see this seneca circling at about 500 ft the underneath guys on final,waiting for a gap.
Now the Florida catch 22,if you extend base or go above 1200 ft you bust Daytona airspace so your commited to turning base.
Unicom frequency,no ATC,about 3 instructors telling the a$$hole to wake up and join the circuit jamming up the frequency so you can`t ask him his intentions,and cannot announce your on final.
That spooked me.
Last edited by ETOPS773; 25th Jul 2002 at 14:40.
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Final 3 Greens
The simple answer is yes!
However I will clarify a few things. If you were in my circuit you would be in class D airspace. Therefore there should be no unknown traffic around. All vfr traffic should be talking to me and will be passed traffic information on the position of all relevant a/c. If they could not see each other I would try and update traffic positions as much as I could, depending on my other workload. I would at no point pass avoiding action to either of them.
Slightly different senario is to add an ifr in the middle. If I passed traffic to you on an ifr but you still couldnt see it then I would tell you to hold/orbit. Im not doing this for your benefit. I am not responsible for seperating vfr/ifr traffic either! My only reason would be that if the ifr a/c asked for avoidance on the vfr I would have to give it. By actively seperating you before that happens I am actually cutting down my own workload!
It does surprise me the amount of vfr ppls that "assume" because they are in class D airspace under ATC that they dont have to "look out" as much. They seem to think that it is a safer environment. In reality it is no different from flying outside controlled airspace. Seperation is still very much their own responsibility.
Slightly different situation if in class E/F/G airspace or indeed if there is unknown traffic in class D. I would still pass as much traffic information as I could, but the decision for avoidance is still up to you!
To get back to your question though, if your a/c was in any danger whatsoever then I would expect you to ignore any instructions that I have given you, and to do what you deem as appropriate to get out of it. As for impacting my mental game of chess, well I have to constantly reassess my game and change it accordinly. Hopefully by avoiding an a/c you will not fly into the teeth of another one!!!
Dont get me wrong here. If I was looking out my tower window and saw two a/c on a collision course I would do everything I could to ensure that they did not hit. I know that I couldnt sleep at night thinking that I could of stopped two vfrs hitting each other, but didnt because I wasnt responsible for them!! The point here is that technically they are responsible to see and be seen all by themselves. If they want to be actively seperated from other a/c and given avoiding action if needed then they must fly svfr/ifr and lets face it that would take all the fun out of flying vfr and going where you want to!!
if I'm VFR on base leg in your circuit, would you expect me to take my own avoiding action, even if it meant over riding your last clearance and impacting your mental game of chess?
The simple answer is yes!
However I will clarify a few things. If you were in my circuit you would be in class D airspace. Therefore there should be no unknown traffic around. All vfr traffic should be talking to me and will be passed traffic information on the position of all relevant a/c. If they could not see each other I would try and update traffic positions as much as I could, depending on my other workload. I would at no point pass avoiding action to either of them.
Slightly different senario is to add an ifr in the middle. If I passed traffic to you on an ifr but you still couldnt see it then I would tell you to hold/orbit. Im not doing this for your benefit. I am not responsible for seperating vfr/ifr traffic either! My only reason would be that if the ifr a/c asked for avoidance on the vfr I would have to give it. By actively seperating you before that happens I am actually cutting down my own workload!
It does surprise me the amount of vfr ppls that "assume" because they are in class D airspace under ATC that they dont have to "look out" as much. They seem to think that it is a safer environment. In reality it is no different from flying outside controlled airspace. Seperation is still very much their own responsibility.
Slightly different situation if in class E/F/G airspace or indeed if there is unknown traffic in class D. I would still pass as much traffic information as I could, but the decision for avoidance is still up to you!
To get back to your question though, if your a/c was in any danger whatsoever then I would expect you to ignore any instructions that I have given you, and to do what you deem as appropriate to get out of it. As for impacting my mental game of chess, well I have to constantly reassess my game and change it accordinly. Hopefully by avoiding an a/c you will not fly into the teeth of another one!!!
Dont get me wrong here. If I was looking out my tower window and saw two a/c on a collision course I would do everything I could to ensure that they did not hit. I know that I couldnt sleep at night thinking that I could of stopped two vfrs hitting each other, but didnt because I wasnt responsible for them!! The point here is that technically they are responsible to see and be seen all by themselves. If they want to be actively seperated from other a/c and given avoiding action if needed then they must fly svfr/ifr and lets face it that would take all the fun out of flying vfr and going where you want to!!
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ATCBabe
I very much appreciate your full response. Understanding your view of the world improves mine too.
Rest assured that I consider that the "lookout buck" stops with me at any time, even under SVFR in Class A.
However, I am always conscious that my actions can impact (no pun intended) other circuit traffic too.
Finals
I very much appreciate your full response. Understanding your view of the world improves mine too.
Rest assured that I consider that the "lookout buck" stops with me at any time, even under SVFR in Class A.
However, I am always conscious that my actions can impact (no pun intended) other circuit traffic too.
Finals
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 26th Jul 2002 at 17:26.
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Ooops sorry, got distracted!
Left base at Coventry is fairly long, so I wasn't set up for landing. I did have my landing light on though, as I'd just completed one circuit. I decided against turning away, as it would cut down visibility. So basically I continued, but kept my eyes glued up front. Never did see them. Instructor was happy with my decision (he was only there as a pax really).
Left base at Coventry is fairly long, so I wasn't set up for landing. I did have my landing light on though, as I'd just completed one circuit. I decided against turning away, as it would cut down visibility. So basically I continued, but kept my eyes glued up front. Never did see them. Instructor was happy with my decision (he was only there as a pax really).
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Twr & App Combined
Oh - ATCBabe, the innocence of the NATS employee
Yes - perfectly legal and indeed many units combine and operate the two ratings quite happily together (Sheffield, Plymouth, Gloucester when quiet, Filton at weekends, Cranfield at weekends, Scatsta) to name but a few.
But that is APP (A rating I believe NATS don't teach anymore) as opposed to APR . As Spitoon says, ADC & APR is a bit iffy - in fact downright illegal. Schedule 9 para 1 of the ANO is the relevant bit of reading.
CM
Yes - perfectly legal and indeed many units combine and operate the two ratings quite happily together (Sheffield, Plymouth, Gloucester when quiet, Filton at weekends, Cranfield at weekends, Scatsta) to name but a few.
But that is APP (A rating I believe NATS don't teach anymore) as opposed to APR . As Spitoon says, ADC & APR is a bit iffy - in fact downright illegal. Schedule 9 para 1 of the ANO is the relevant bit of reading.
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ATCBabe... I know what you mean about 'looking after yourself' when VFR in Class D. I learnt that one early on.
I was PPL circuit bashing, in the apparent womb of tower control, only to find someone going the wrong way downwind. The guy passed about 100ft directly above, having flown a rather unconventional go around.
I was PPL circuit bashing, in the apparent womb of tower control, only to find someone going the wrong way downwind. The guy passed about 100ft directly above, having flown a rather unconventional go around.
