Effect of Brexit on UK certificates etc.

[highcirrus]

Capt Kremmen

You posted earlier:

If as you write we already have them and they are ' practical agreed systems' then nothing, apart from the name or title of the replacement issuing or supervising authority, needs to change. In this respect, the CAA clearly has the means and the expertise to manage the takeover..

Perhaps I could draw your attention to the words of Andrew Haines, Chief Executive of the CAA, 5 September 2017 ?

So we are very uncompromising in our view that we should not be planning for a new independent aviation safety system in the UK. Indeed, we have consciously decided not to do that work as it would be misleading to suggest that’s a viable option.

Of course in the very long term, it might be, but it’s not one we will be espousing.

Reuters reports on 25 January 2018 as follows:

“It makes no sense to recreate a national regulator. At best, you replicate the vast majority of European regulation, and you’d have to do it over an extended period of time. At worst, you create unnecessary barriers,” CAA Chief Executive Andrew Haines said in a speech in September.

If Britain is not allowed to remain a part of EASA, the CAA would have to take over its responsibilities in making sure airlines respect safety rules and manufacturers and maintenance companies meet standards, raising questions about whether it has the capacity to do that.

Haines said the CAA was purposely not planning for that scenario “as it would be misleading to suggest that’s a viable option.”

UK aerospace industry body ADS, which counts Airbus (AIR.PA) as a member, said last week it would take approximately 5-10 years for the CAA to rebuild its safety regulation capability to take over EASA’s current responsibilities.

In the short-term immediately after a "no deal Brexit", I'm not, therefore, entirely sure that, as you assert, "the CAA clearly has the means and the expertise to manage the takeover.." What do you think?

[Capt Kremmen]

Nothing that Andrew Haines has said expressly shuts the door against the more than likely possibility that the CAA will move fairly smoothly into transition mode. The CAA have had - in one guise or another - 80 plus years to acquire the aviation administrative skills necessary to see them thru' Brexit transition. That's about seven or eight times longer than EASA have had to make their presence felt.

It is said that Andrew Haines has been wearing for sometime a rather pained "I don't believe it" expression on his otherwise cheerful countenance, isn't because he's suffering from piles but simply because the shock of the Referendum and its likely impact on the CAA is still registering. Who, could have foreseen it ? The 'elites' certainly didn't.

[Johnm]

Surely no-one thinks the history of U.K. CAA was GA friendly do they. My whole point is that neither CAA nor EASA have been without fault, but the CAA under Andrew Haines made substantial improvements working with Patrick Ky at EASA. Patrick Ky is there for at least another 5 years Andrew Haines is already moving on and CAA is staffed and geared up to work as a NAA within EASA, changing that will be non-trivial and whether it is then as GA friendly as EASA completely unknown. Better the devil you know etc. etc.

[Steve6443]

Originally Posted by Johnm

Better the devil you know etc. etc.

And there you have it. Too afraid of change, you'd prefer to relinquish all national identity and become a good European, controlled by the unelected and unaccountable.

[Johnm]

Originally Posted by Steve6443

And there you have it. Too afraid of change, you'd prefer to relinquish all national identity and become a good European, controlled by the unelected and unaccountable.

i am not afraid of change I’ve spent the last 50 years causing it to happen in a wide range of contexts. However I’ve always done that on the basis of a simple risk reward equation. How risky and costly is the change and how great the benefit. Brexit and leaving EASA fails every version of that test I’ve seen thus far.

Moreover the growing collaboration amongst European countries through the EU Treaties is inspiring. Do I think the EU is marvellous, no it’s flawed and imperfect but with a positive vision. Do I think the U.K. is perfect, far from it, you only need to drive the potholed roads and watch the news to see that. The UK in the EU can drive a positive future, outside who knows?

[robin]

It's not about fear of change. It's simply that there is no chance the UK Govt would want to re-establish the CAA of old. It would cost too much.

The CAA is much cheaper as an NAA under EASA and that will decide whether or not we leave EASA

[highcirrus]

Capt Kremmen

You mention:

the more than likely possibility that the CAA will move fairly smoothly into transition mode

Could you provide us with some evidence that this will be so on 30 March 2019 in the event of a "no deal Brexit"? You see, the entire UK Air Transport/Aerospace Manufacturing industry cannot be reliant merely on a "likely possibility" on the day but must have absolute certainty so that the effects of the Notice to Stakeholders Withdrawal of the UK and EU Aviation Safety Rules, do not take effect:

Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:

 Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;

 Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;

 Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;

 Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons responsible for providing practical training or assessing the skills of air traffic controllers, issued pursuant to Articles 8a, 8b and 8c of the Basic Regulation.

If you're stuck for an answer, maybe ask your MP at WriteToThem .

Maybe also ask him/her why the government isn't pursuing Brexit via EFTA/EEA membership, when all these problems would disappear and UK would have some breathing space to arrange real independence/reorganisation and possibly become worthy again of the title Great Britain?

[Johnm]

JAR and later EASA were established primarily to support CAT across the EU and a few neighbouring states who wanted to join the party. The goal was to ensure that, for example, a pilot with a German ATPL living in Austria could fly a French registered aircraft from Budapest to London with the minimum of paperwork. GA got swept up in all this by people who didn’t really understand it. Much lobbying and EASA hiring a number of people who hold and use PPLs has started the process of rowing back to situation rather better than Pre-EASA in many states. Though some NAAs are more helpful in this than others.

Brexit needs to either remain with it by agreement or find a way to replace it all, which won’t be easy or quick.