Luton Minor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
A couple of misleading bits on costings,
Rusty Sparrow quotes his D9 at £10/hr, the add he links to says 10 litres an hour so already over £10/hr on fuel alone, I am not sure how they manage to operate at £5/hr dry either, this may cover day to day maintenance but I suspect the engine fund is a bit dry so watch out for big cash calls.
On the other side, Dan D quotes
, whilst I am sure there are clubs around that charge this I would say the MOST you would need is an associate membership and most airfields you don't have to be in a club so you probably will not have to fork out for this anyway.
Rusty Sparrow quotes his D9 at £10/hr, the add he links to says 10 litres an hour so already over £10/hr on fuel alone, I am not sure how they manage to operate at £5/hr dry either, this may cover day to day maintenance but I suspect the engine fund is a bit dry so watch out for big cash calls.
On the other side, Dan D quotes
Airfield/flying club membership up to £500.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I think the idea of a fifty or sixty year old home built is a terrible idea.
These structures are simply no longer safe.
The wood and glues have deteriorated to the point that their C of As should be pulled.
These things should all be hanging from the hangar rafters.
There are plenty of modern light sport aircraft that can be purchased used for very little money.
These Rotax powered machines will provide years of safe flying.
If you have to worry about how much fuel a plane uses, my guess is you really can't afford it.
For the least expensive thing you put into and aircraft is the fuel.
I operate an aircraft with a Lycoming O-320 E2D that I run on Mo-Gas (ethanol free 87 octane car gas).
It doesn't get any cheaper than that.
An O-320 if you throttle back to 2200 rpm will burn about 7 US gallons per hour.
A O-235 at 2400 rpm burns about the same.
US$15 an hour.
I wouldn't dream of ever flying a Volkswagen Beetle powered plane.
I value my life too much.
The absolute minimum I'd get in, is a Continental O-200 powered machine.
Remember it's not just your life that gets ruined when you crash and burn.
But that of your wife and children too.
There was a nice Robin H100 on eBay.co.uk last week.
It sold for about GBP12,000.
If you went in with two or three others.
Then this would be a far better idea than a Heath Parasol, I mean a Luton Minor.
Now a Morris Minor, split window, or a convertible.
Now that's a good idea.
These structures are simply no longer safe.
The wood and glues have deteriorated to the point that their C of As should be pulled.
These things should all be hanging from the hangar rafters.
There are plenty of modern light sport aircraft that can be purchased used for very little money.
These Rotax powered machines will provide years of safe flying.
If you have to worry about how much fuel a plane uses, my guess is you really can't afford it.
For the least expensive thing you put into and aircraft is the fuel.
I operate an aircraft with a Lycoming O-320 E2D that I run on Mo-Gas (ethanol free 87 octane car gas).
It doesn't get any cheaper than that.
An O-320 if you throttle back to 2200 rpm will burn about 7 US gallons per hour.
A O-235 at 2400 rpm burns about the same.
US$15 an hour.
I wouldn't dream of ever flying a Volkswagen Beetle powered plane.
I value my life too much.
The absolute minimum I'd get in, is a Continental O-200 powered machine.
Remember it's not just your life that gets ruined when you crash and burn.
But that of your wife and children too.
There was a nice Robin H100 on eBay.co.uk last week.
It sold for about GBP12,000.
If you went in with two or three others.
Then this would be a far better idea than a Heath Parasol, I mean a Luton Minor.
Now a Morris Minor, split window, or a convertible.
Now that's a good idea.
Last edited by button push ignored; 25th May 2017 at 01:40.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: 57 North
What pish! I know you wrote "I think the idea of..." so it's an opinion. Fine, but it's still pish.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I know this aircraft. G-AZHU isnt a 50 or 60 year old aircraft. It was rebuilt to a very high standard by an ex RAF aircraft mechanic who very reluctantly sold it on; it was his pride and joy for many years. As far as the starting problem is concerned, it used to start first swing for him. I suspect it's a problem of technique rather than with the aircraft itself.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 90
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From: norfolk
The wood and glues have deteriorated to the point that their C of As should be pulled.
A looked after wooden airframe will long outlast an often corroded Aluminium one and doesn`t suffer from fatigue cycles.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: 57 North
I too suspect the sometime difficulty with starting is with technique rather than mechanical/electrical/fuel fault.
My own VW with 'armstrong' starter isn't usually a problem when cold or hot, though when warm it can be a little difficult.
Cold, open throttle, full choke, ignition OFF and suck in through 8 to 12 blades, depending on how cold, summer cold or winter cold, then allow to sit for about 30 seconds or so, set throttle and it will normally fire in a blade or two.
Hot, switch on and swing the prop pretty much does it.
Warm, meh, it often likes 2 maybe 4 blades with choke, open throttle, magneto OFF , then a couple of blades with no choke and open throttle, magneto OFF. You can do those last couple of 'clearing' blades backwards if you're nervous. A short pause before going for a start usually is beneficial too.
My own VW with 'armstrong' starter isn't usually a problem when cold or hot, though when warm it can be a little difficult.
Cold, open throttle, full choke, ignition OFF and suck in through 8 to 12 blades, depending on how cold, summer cold or winter cold, then allow to sit for about 30 seconds or so, set throttle and it will normally fire in a blade or two.
Hot, switch on and swing the prop pretty much does it.
Warm, meh, it often likes 2 maybe 4 blades with choke, open throttle, magneto OFF , then a couple of blades with no choke and open throttle, magneto OFF. You can do those last couple of 'clearing' blades backwards if you're nervous. A short pause before going for a start usually is beneficial too.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 442
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From: London
Thank you everyone for all the thoughts, anecdotes and suggestions etc... I really appreciate it. Sorry I haven't been faster at responding - I have been drowning under a ton of work which was unexpected.
Thank you Capn Bug Smasher, GTE and RustySparrow for the heads up about the inertia, I have flown more than just a PA28 and a PA28RT - so hopefully this won't be too much of a surprise! It could be fun to get an hour or two in a microlight, so I may well do this too!
chevvron, that wingspan is HUGE! Interesting design, reminds me a little of the glider fitted with a jet engine... https://goo.gl/D6cjv1 (there are some more elegant ones designed as "pop-up" that I've seen)
Dan D & Foxmoth - Any airfield requiring you to pay a few hundred pounds on top of a few hundred pounds a month on hangarage I find criminal. I only know one place which does this near London (WLAC) but as you do not pay any landing fees by being based there, I've been told that the membership is equivalent to 22 landings / circuits. So I guess that if you're purchasing a plane, and basing it there, you probably ought to be doing more than 22 landings a year. (You also get access to the club house, a nice pub, etc...)
ABGD - that's good to know, I recently joined The Tiger Club and I absolutely love it. Are you also a member? Or do you just love the turbs?
Colibri49 - thank you for the advert, but this is far too far for me. If I owned a share there, it would be upwards of 2 hours drive to fly, which would be somewhat counter-productive.
Arclite01 - this is very interesting indeed! Thank you very much for your input.
button push ignored -->
I think there is a mis-understanding here.... This is not a cost-saving exercise, I am not after "the cheapest per hour that I can find". I am not hour-building either, (I have more hours than would be required for any licence I could possibly want) and these machines do not run on CofA - they are permit aeroplanes.
If someone is looking at purchasing one of these stunning old machines for "cheap flying" then you are absolutely right, and you should recommend they look at a modern microlight, or even another hobby. However, here, I am looking for an open-cockpit, tailwheel, single (or double) seater to have a bit of fun in without a proper "mission profile" as I have access to other machines for such purposes.
Will I fly all over the UK and (most of) Europe in one of these "old vintage" as you put it? Most certainly! But this isn't about "the mission", it isn't about the cost, it is about the fun, the small strips flying, the meeting of farmers and other aviators on their strips, the air in your hair, this complete freedom of where and when to go and simply put - just an incredible adventure ahead of anything else. With regards to your safety concerns, most of these planes will be re-covered every 10 (ish) years, when glue, structural damage etc will be assessed fully by a licensed engineer. So I am not 100% sure where this lack of safety idea comes from. I would of course make my own independent assessment with another licensed LAA inspector prior to any purchase.
Now about this particular purchase that I was very interested in, it turns out that the hangar I had phoned, which DID have a space, no longer has enough space to fit in the Luton Minor, so I am looking at other options around London area but this hasn't been too fruitful yet! Might have to wait until I find space which the current seller won't be keen on...
Thank you again for all your help!
Alex
Thank you Capn Bug Smasher, GTE and RustySparrow for the heads up about the inertia, I have flown more than just a PA28 and a PA28RT - so hopefully this won't be too much of a surprise! It could be fun to get an hour or two in a microlight, so I may well do this too!
chevvron, that wingspan is HUGE! Interesting design, reminds me a little of the glider fitted with a jet engine... https://goo.gl/D6cjv1 (there are some more elegant ones designed as "pop-up" that I've seen)
Dan D & Foxmoth - Any airfield requiring you to pay a few hundred pounds on top of a few hundred pounds a month on hangarage I find criminal. I only know one place which does this near London (WLAC) but as you do not pay any landing fees by being based there, I've been told that the membership is equivalent to 22 landings / circuits. So I guess that if you're purchasing a plane, and basing it there, you probably ought to be doing more than 22 landings a year. (You also get access to the club house, a nice pub, etc...)
ABGD - that's good to know, I recently joined The Tiger Club and I absolutely love it. Are you also a member? Or do you just love the turbs?
Colibri49 - thank you for the advert, but this is far too far for me. If I owned a share there, it would be upwards of 2 hours drive to fly, which would be somewhat counter-productive.
Arclite01 - this is very interesting indeed! Thank you very much for your input.
button push ignored -->
I think there is a mis-understanding here.... This is not a cost-saving exercise, I am not after "the cheapest per hour that I can find". I am not hour-building either, (I have more hours than would be required for any licence I could possibly want) and these machines do not run on CofA - they are permit aeroplanes.
If someone is looking at purchasing one of these stunning old machines for "cheap flying" then you are absolutely right, and you should recommend they look at a modern microlight, or even another hobby. However, here, I am looking for an open-cockpit, tailwheel, single (or double) seater to have a bit of fun in without a proper "mission profile" as I have access to other machines for such purposes.
Will I fly all over the UK and (most of) Europe in one of these "old vintage" as you put it? Most certainly! But this isn't about "the mission", it isn't about the cost, it is about the fun, the small strips flying, the meeting of farmers and other aviators on their strips, the air in your hair, this complete freedom of where and when to go and simply put - just an incredible adventure ahead of anything else. With regards to your safety concerns, most of these planes will be re-covered every 10 (ish) years, when glue, structural damage etc will be assessed fully by a licensed engineer. So I am not 100% sure where this lack of safety idea comes from. I would of course make my own independent assessment with another licensed LAA inspector prior to any purchase.
Now about this particular purchase that I was very interested in, it turns out that the hangar I had phoned, which DID have a space, no longer has enough space to fit in the Luton Minor, so I am looking at other options around London area but this hasn't been too fruitful yet! Might have to wait until I find space which the current seller won't be keen on...
Thank you again for all your help!
Alex
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Dunno about the Luton or the Jodel, but you can throttle the Turbulent back and pootle happily on 6-7 litres an hour - which will come in under gbp10.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Airline Transport Pilot: Single and Multi-engine land.
Many type ratings.
Tens of thousands of hours flight time.
Major airline captain for last 26 years for one of the worlds finest airlines.
Flight Engineer: Turbojet.
Mechanic: Airframe and Powerplant.
Flight Instructor: Airplane, Instrument, Multi-engine.
Aircraft Dispatcher:
Ground Instructor: Airplane, Instrument.
And you think I'm a 'nobody in particular'.
Just because I don't care for vintage homebuilts, with car engines.
I take offence to your comment about me.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 5
From: The Wild West (UK)
Setting aside offence, there's the question of whether what you say is true.
The US publishes the NTSB database of aircraft accidents which is freely searchable. I had the bright idea that I could look through lists of accidents affecting wooden homebuilts and see whether structural failure was more common in older aircraft. I failed, as it doesn't seem to be common enough to draw conclusions from.
The Luton Minor must clearly be a very safe aircraft as there have been no accidents involving them in the US, ever. So I chose to look at accidents involving the Volksplane which is a popular wooden homebuilt in the US and which like the Luton has been knocking around for a few years.
Of 41 accidents, only one involved a glued joint coming loose in a rudder attachment. One involved a crankshaft bearing. There were I think three which were put down to engine failure of unknown cause - one tends to suspect icing. One was due to propeller failure. One to dodgy Magneto timing. One to debris in the carburettor. A few to fuel system misassembly and one to leaving the choke open and flooding the engine. One involved a throttle cable detachment. Two involved unfitted pulley guards. But most were put down to good old pilot error and inexperience. I haven't counted gear failure due to heavy landings as structural failure.
The other thing that stood out was that there were 5 fatalities, which compares favourably with many more modern hot-ships and even the Cessna 172 (38 accidents involved fatalities out of the first 200 on the page). On an hourly basis, who knows..?
All very crude and unworthy of publication in a scholarly journal, but I find no obvious evidence that these aircraft are falling out of the skies in significant numbers. Some of the accidents were due to poor maintenance or design and might not have happened to a certified aircraft, but for the most part they were unrelated to the aircraft's age - except insofar as you might argue that an older aircraft would be less likely to have a missing pulley guard as it would already have crashed.
Generally speaking, an aircraft with a slower stall speed is a safer aircraft as it lets you crash more slowly. As such it seems to me that an old and slow wooden homebuilt should be acceptably safe. Anyway Button Push Noted, you might have lots of qualifications but I think the ball's in your court to provide some evidence.
Well, you sound like the perfect owner for such an aircraft so I hope you manage to find somewhere to hangar her.
I'm not a member of the Tiger club, but I did my tailwheel training with Glyn and hope to make it to one of the barbecues. So hopefully see you there one day.
The US publishes the NTSB database of aircraft accidents which is freely searchable. I had the bright idea that I could look through lists of accidents affecting wooden homebuilts and see whether structural failure was more common in older aircraft. I failed, as it doesn't seem to be common enough to draw conclusions from.
The Luton Minor must clearly be a very safe aircraft as there have been no accidents involving them in the US, ever. So I chose to look at accidents involving the Volksplane which is a popular wooden homebuilt in the US and which like the Luton has been knocking around for a few years.
Of 41 accidents, only one involved a glued joint coming loose in a rudder attachment. One involved a crankshaft bearing. There were I think three which were put down to engine failure of unknown cause - one tends to suspect icing. One was due to propeller failure. One to dodgy Magneto timing. One to debris in the carburettor. A few to fuel system misassembly and one to leaving the choke open and flooding the engine. One involved a throttle cable detachment. Two involved unfitted pulley guards. But most were put down to good old pilot error and inexperience. I haven't counted gear failure due to heavy landings as structural failure.
The other thing that stood out was that there were 5 fatalities, which compares favourably with many more modern hot-ships and even the Cessna 172 (38 accidents involved fatalities out of the first 200 on the page). On an hourly basis, who knows..?
All very crude and unworthy of publication in a scholarly journal, but I find no obvious evidence that these aircraft are falling out of the skies in significant numbers. Some of the accidents were due to poor maintenance or design and might not have happened to a certified aircraft, but for the most part they were unrelated to the aircraft's age - except insofar as you might argue that an older aircraft would be less likely to have a missing pulley guard as it would already have crashed.
Generally speaking, an aircraft with a slower stall speed is a safer aircraft as it lets you crash more slowly. As such it seems to me that an old and slow wooden homebuilt should be acceptably safe. Anyway Button Push Noted, you might have lots of qualifications but I think the ball's in your court to provide some evidence.
However, here, I am looking for an open-cockpit, tailwheel, single (or double) seater to have a bit of fun in without a proper "mission profile" as I have access to other machines for such purposes.
Will I fly all over the UK and (most of) Europe in one of these "old vintage" as you put it? Most certainly! But this isn't about "the mission", it isn't about the cost, it is about the fun, the small strips flying, the meeting of farmers and other aviators on their strips, the air in your hair, this complete freedom of where and when to go and simply put - just an incredible adventure ahead of anything else.
Will I fly all over the UK and (most of) Europe in one of these "old vintage" as you put it? Most certainly! But this isn't about "the mission", it isn't about the cost, it is about the fun, the small strips flying, the meeting of farmers and other aviators on their strips, the air in your hair, this complete freedom of where and when to go and simply put - just an incredible adventure ahead of anything else.
I'm not a member of the Tiger club, but I did my tailwheel training with Glyn and hope to make it to one of the barbecues. So hopefully see you there one day.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 5
From: The Wild West (UK)
Foxmoth: what you say regarding running costs is true. For me the big one is hangarage at about 1200 per year.
I am cost-conscious and never really got my head round spending two or three pounds a minute on renting a Cessna or Piper. My current flying may not be an order of magnitude cheaper on an hourly basis (though I think it could be if I formed a group), but psychologically the cost of flying an additional hour being so low is that it makes it much more enjoyable to actually fly one.
I am cost-conscious and never really got my head round spending two or three pounds a minute on renting a Cessna or Piper. My current flying may not be an order of magnitude cheaper on an hourly basis (though I think it could be if I formed a group), but psychologically the cost of flying an additional hour being so low is that it makes it much more enjoyable to actually fly one.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
Here's your dream plane.
It for sale on e-Bay.co.uk with a 'buy it now' of GBP 6.950.oo.
And it even has a 'make offer', so you may be able to buy it for less.
1939 Mignet Pou Du Ciel (Flying Flea)
G-ADRG.
With early Citroen 425cc car engine.
Available in Warwickshire.
Perfect for European touring.
Enjoy.
It for sale on e-Bay.co.uk with a 'buy it now' of GBP 6.950.oo.
And it even has a 'make offer', so you may be able to buy it for less.
1939 Mignet Pou Du Ciel (Flying Flea)
G-ADRG.
With early Citroen 425cc car engine.
Available in Warwickshire.
Perfect for European touring.
Enjoy.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: Cooper City, Florida
Here's your dream plane.
It for sale on e-Bay.co.uk with a 'buy it now' of GBP 6.950.oo.
And it even has a 'make offer', so you may be able to buy it for less.
1939 Mignet Pou Du Ciel (Flying Flea)
G-ADRG.
With early Citroen 425cc car engine.
Available in Warwickshire.
Perfect for European touring.
Enjoy.
It for sale on e-Bay.co.uk with a 'buy it now' of GBP 6.950.oo.
And it even has a 'make offer', so you may be able to buy it for less.
1939 Mignet Pou Du Ciel (Flying Flea)
G-ADRG.
With early Citroen 425cc car engine.
Available in Warwickshire.
Perfect for European touring.
Enjoy.
I think a D registration is earlier than 1939. The aircraft were banned because it was unable to recover from an extreme nose down situation and resulted in fatalities. A later corrected version was flying on a PFA permit to fly, and a lot of French aircraft of similar concept flew well.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 29
From: Bolton ENGLAND
I think a D registration is earlier than 1939. The aircraft were banned because it was unable to recover from an extreme nose down situation and resulted in fatalities. A later corrected version was flying on a PFA permit to fly, and a lot of French aircraft of similar concept flew well.
This Flea is a relatively modern replica. It is more accurately BAPC 77. G-ADRG has as far as I know never been issued. Thus it is a "dress" registration. Agree the "D" series would have been before 1939, I think 37 but not checked it.