RIP VAN WINKEL ENGINE
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: kenner, LA
RIP VAN WINKEL ENGINE
Just picked up a C-150 that has not been touched for nearly a decade. Doesn't look too bad. Engine turns over freely. Plan is to drain the oil (take a sample for testing) and refill with mineral oil. Also to take out the top plugs and squirt in some marvel mystery oil. Then just start rotating by hand. later spinning it without fire to fill up the lifters. If things look good, get some gas and a battery and see if she starts.
Log only shows about 1,100 hours.
it works on old cars. Are planes the same?
Also plan to add an oil filter. I'm not comfortable with just a screen.
So, any advice? Eventual plan is to take the engine and use it in the experimental I am building.
Thanks.
Log only shows about 1,100 hours.
it works on old cars. Are planes the same?
Also plan to add an oil filter. I'm not comfortable with just a screen.
So, any advice? Eventual plan is to take the engine and use it in the experimental I am building.
Thanks.
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
The problem with engines that have not been run in a long time is corrosion.
Continentals are slightly better than Lycoming in regards to this because the camshaft in below the crankshaft.
On a Lycoming it is above the crankshaft, and the oil seems to drain off the lifters and cam lobes quicker.
Once there is no oil to protect it, corrosion sets in on the lifters just behind the cam lobe. This causes pitting.
Which once it starts, the lifters grind the cam lobes to pulp when the engine is run.
Once it starts, there is no stopping it. Your engine will need a new camshaft and lifters.
If an engine has been static run, on the pretense of keeping it lubed up, they are in fact causing more problems than they are solving.
For you must run an aircraft engine, for at least one hour in the air, to burn off the moisture, that is a by-product of combustion.
If you just start it up and run it on the ground, all you are doing is wiping the rust off the lifters, so new corrosion can set in on another part of the lifters.
You are also dumping a lot more moisture int the crankcase from start up.
Many people dry out an engine with a vacuum system after every flight.
What can you do to prevent corrosion?
1/ Fly the aircraft at least once a week for at least one hour.
2/ Change the oil every 25 hours if flown infrequently or 35 hours if flown regularly.
3/ Drain the oil from every drain point. a/ drain plug b/ sump c/ oil cooler d/ oil screen e/ oil filter (if installed)
If you do these three things, there is no need to use Camgard.
But if you don't subscribe to this regiment or you live in a coastal area, then you must use it.
What is Camgard, and what does it do?
1/ It is a ZDDP additive, which is zinc, which help prevent piston scuffing and help with extreme pressure on a camshaft.
Many oils already have a high zinc content. That's what the 'plus' in AeroShell 100 Plus is.
Lycoming engine treatment is ZDDP, that is mandated for the O-320 H2AD problematic engine.
2/ It is an anti-corrosive agent.
There is actually no need to use it every time, as the anti-corrosive agent lasts about three oil changes because it coats the inside of the engine.
I am not advocating the use of automotive products in certified aircraft engines.
Certainly approved products and regular maintenance is the best course of action.
But is there an automotive equivalent to Camguard?
Motorkote, available at Wal-Mart. $29, enough for five oil changes.
Lucas Oil, ZDDP Zinc Plus, available at most auto parts stores. $20, enough for two oil changes.
It is not authorized for use it in a certified engine, but you stated that you were planning on using it in the experimental category where you can use anything you want to.
Nothing other than Lycoming engine treatment is FAA approved.
Only an engine manufacturer can certify something.
The FAA can only accept the manufacturers recommendations.
Camguard and AvBlend are FAA accepted not FAA approved.
No matter what the bottle says.
As for adding a oil filter.
There is no need to do this if you subscribe to the 12 to 15 hour oil change regiment.
The required oil changes are 25 no filter, and 50 with one.
Do not use automotive oil in a aircraft engine.
Even something like Castrol GTX 20W-50, which is a great oil, would not be a good idea.
These oils foam in an aircraft engine.
Foam contains air, which would lead to a breakdown of the oil film.
Some competition car racing oils however are very good, and come in SAE 30, SAE 40, SAE 50, SAE 60 and SAE 70 (for Nitro burning funny cars).
These will not foam and are high zinc.
Synthetics and blends are also available from Royal Purple and Lucas Oil.
Perfect for racing aircraft engines.
My first plane had a O-200.
When I first changed the oil, the screen was completely full of sludge and carbon.
Some people just don't give a darn.
Rislone oil treatment will remove and prevent sludge in an engine.
Sea Foam, will remove and prevent gum and varnish from an engine.
To prevent valves sticking, do one of two things.
1/ Use Av Blend or it's automotive equivalent Z-Max.
2/ Change the oil to half time recommendations of 12 to 15 no filter, or 25 to 35 with one.
Marvels Mystery Oil makes a wonderful upper cylinder lubricant.
The United States Air Force used it for years and swears it makes cylinders last longer.
And it does, but for some reason, it's not authorized.
But just look at how many empty red bottles are in the trash can next to the airports fuel pumps.
O-200 and O-300 engines run better on Mo-Gas than Av-Gas.
A little octane booster MMDM makes them hum right along nicely.
Continentals are slightly better than Lycoming in regards to this because the camshaft in below the crankshaft.
On a Lycoming it is above the crankshaft, and the oil seems to drain off the lifters and cam lobes quicker.
Once there is no oil to protect it, corrosion sets in on the lifters just behind the cam lobe. This causes pitting.
Which once it starts, the lifters grind the cam lobes to pulp when the engine is run.
Once it starts, there is no stopping it. Your engine will need a new camshaft and lifters.
If an engine has been static run, on the pretense of keeping it lubed up, they are in fact causing more problems than they are solving.
For you must run an aircraft engine, for at least one hour in the air, to burn off the moisture, that is a by-product of combustion.
If you just start it up and run it on the ground, all you are doing is wiping the rust off the lifters, so new corrosion can set in on another part of the lifters.
You are also dumping a lot more moisture int the crankcase from start up.
Many people dry out an engine with a vacuum system after every flight.
What can you do to prevent corrosion?
1/ Fly the aircraft at least once a week for at least one hour.
2/ Change the oil every 25 hours if flown infrequently or 35 hours if flown regularly.
3/ Drain the oil from every drain point. a/ drain plug b/ sump c/ oil cooler d/ oil screen e/ oil filter (if installed)
If you do these three things, there is no need to use Camgard.
But if you don't subscribe to this regiment or you live in a coastal area, then you must use it.
What is Camgard, and what does it do?
1/ It is a ZDDP additive, which is zinc, which help prevent piston scuffing and help with extreme pressure on a camshaft.
Many oils already have a high zinc content. That's what the 'plus' in AeroShell 100 Plus is.
Lycoming engine treatment is ZDDP, that is mandated for the O-320 H2AD problematic engine.
2/ It is an anti-corrosive agent.
There is actually no need to use it every time, as the anti-corrosive agent lasts about three oil changes because it coats the inside of the engine.
I am not advocating the use of automotive products in certified aircraft engines.
Certainly approved products and regular maintenance is the best course of action.
But is there an automotive equivalent to Camguard?
Motorkote, available at Wal-Mart. $29, enough for five oil changes.
Lucas Oil, ZDDP Zinc Plus, available at most auto parts stores. $20, enough for two oil changes.
It is not authorized for use it in a certified engine, but you stated that you were planning on using it in the experimental category where you can use anything you want to.
Nothing other than Lycoming engine treatment is FAA approved.
Only an engine manufacturer can certify something.
The FAA can only accept the manufacturers recommendations.
Camguard and AvBlend are FAA accepted not FAA approved.
No matter what the bottle says.
As for adding a oil filter.
There is no need to do this if you subscribe to the 12 to 15 hour oil change regiment.
The required oil changes are 25 no filter, and 50 with one.
Do not use automotive oil in a aircraft engine.
Even something like Castrol GTX 20W-50, which is a great oil, would not be a good idea.
These oils foam in an aircraft engine.
Foam contains air, which would lead to a breakdown of the oil film.
Some competition car racing oils however are very good, and come in SAE 30, SAE 40, SAE 50, SAE 60 and SAE 70 (for Nitro burning funny cars).
These will not foam and are high zinc.
Synthetics and blends are also available from Royal Purple and Lucas Oil.
Perfect for racing aircraft engines.
My first plane had a O-200.
When I first changed the oil, the screen was completely full of sludge and carbon.
Some people just don't give a darn.
Rislone oil treatment will remove and prevent sludge in an engine.
Sea Foam, will remove and prevent gum and varnish from an engine.
To prevent valves sticking, do one of two things.
1/ Use Av Blend or it's automotive equivalent Z-Max.
2/ Change the oil to half time recommendations of 12 to 15 no filter, or 25 to 35 with one.
Marvels Mystery Oil makes a wonderful upper cylinder lubricant.
The United States Air Force used it for years and swears it makes cylinders last longer.
And it does, but for some reason, it's not authorized.
But just look at how many empty red bottles are in the trash can next to the airports fuel pumps.
O-200 and O-300 engines run better on Mo-Gas than Av-Gas.
A little octane booster MMDM makes them hum right along nicely.
Last edited by button push ignored; 5th May 2017 at 22:21.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,803
Likes: 0
From: Perth - Western Australia
Oil drains off the surfaces in engines in as little as 2 months, allowing corrosion to commence, which is aided by the amount of moisture in the air.
If the aircraft has been stored in a hot, arid environment, then the moisture from condensation problem is reduced, but never totally eliminated.
I have seen new, reconditioned engines, stored under cover, seize solid within 18 mths of being reconditioned, despite substantial coatings of oil on every surface when they were assembled.
If the aircraft has been stored in a hot, arid environment, then the moisture from condensation problem is reduced, but never totally eliminated.
I have seen new, reconditioned engines, stored under cover, seize solid within 18 mths of being reconditioned, despite substantial coatings of oil on every surface when they were assembled.
Joined: Jan 2008
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 650
Likes: 45
From: Canada
You should expect to have to replace at least the cam and lifters, and possibly cylinders. Have the carb overhauled before you fly the plane. It would be wise to clean out the oil screen before you run the engine at all, to check for debris. Thereafter, until the engine is rebuilt, the screen should be checked very regularly, in case the engine does start making metal - you don't want to ruin your rear case by scoring the oil pump.
If the engine is a "key start" version, equipped with the original starter clutch, the clutch should be overhauled before the engine is run. The sprage clutch inside there can be seriously gummed up, and may slip with a start attempt. This slipping, if continued more than one start attempt, can result in failure, and sending broken bits of hardened steel through your engine. Hand propping the engine will not reduce this risk, the clutch turns anyway while the engine is running. Do not run the engine with the clutch removed, the needle bearings which support it will fall apart inside the engine. The pull clutch is entirely different, and not a risk in this regard.
If the engine is a "key start" version, equipped with the original starter clutch, the clutch should be overhauled before the engine is run. The sprage clutch inside there can be seriously gummed up, and may slip with a start attempt. This slipping, if continued more than one start attempt, can result in failure, and sending broken bits of hardened steel through your engine. Hand propping the engine will not reduce this risk, the clutch turns anyway while the engine is running. Do not run the engine with the clutch removed, the needle bearings which support it will fall apart inside the engine. The pull clutch is entirely different, and not a risk in this regard.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: southern England
Strip the engine and reassemble it. At 1100 hours, It isn't a bad idea to do so, given the circumstances. Chance is pretty strong that this is the cheapest option. It will certainly be the safest.
