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Different Services and where to get them

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Different Services and where to get them

Old 24th Mar 2017, 09:37
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Originally Posted by scifi
I don't know what range they use when deciding to offer Traffic advice, but it seems to be about 3-5 miles, which with two planes on a closing heading, gives you about 60 seconds warning of the other aircraft.
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See CAP493 (downloadable) Section 1: Chapter 12: UK Flight Information Services - Page 6

Note 1: Traffic is normally considered to be relevant when, in the judgement of the controller, the conflicting aircrafts observed trajectory indicates that it will pass within 3 NM and, where level information is available, 3,000 ft of the aircraft in receipt of the Traffic Service or its level-band if manoeuvring within a level block. However, controllers may also use their judgment to decide on occasions when such traffic is not relevant, e.g. passing behind or within the parameters but diverging. Controllers shall aim to pass information on relevant traffic before the conflicting aircraft is within 5 NM, in order to help the pilot meet his collision avoidance responsibilities and to allow time for an update in traffic information if considered necessary.

Note 2: Good judgement is essential to ensure that traffic information is relevant and timely. Controllers should take account of the aircraft's relative speeds, lateral and vertical closure rates, and track histories.

Note 3: Distances displayed on ATS surveillance systems can be at variance to the actual distances between aircraft due to limitations inherent to surveillance systems. Some aircraft may not be displayed at all.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 12:20
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, what could a radio service (such as Stapleford) be able to offer? Are they still only giving "airfield information and known traffic"?
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 13:12
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Originally Posted by scifi
The only time I have ever asked for a Traffic Service, was when undergoing instruction in IMC conditions.
And what then are you supposed to do with the "aircraft on reciprocal course, two miles, no height information", as you can't see it?

What has worked for me so far is "assume he's below the clouds and that I'm the only one daft enough to fly in the cloud on purpose".
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 14:52
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
And what then are you supposed to do with the "aircraft on reciprocal course, two miles, no height information", as you can't see it?

What has worked for me so far is "assume he's below the clouds and that I'm the only one daft enough to fly in the cloud on purpose".
It is/was normal for Blackbushe based instructors working Farnboruogh West to ask for RIS/Traffic Service when doing upper airwork and climbing or descending through cloud, reverting to FIS/Basic when clear of cloud.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 16:03
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, what could a radio service (such as Stapleford) be able to offer?
Please correct me if I am wrong - but I am pretty sure that Stapleford only has Air-Ground. The only service they are able to provide is an "Air-Ground Communication Service". This means that they are able to talk to you from a ground based radio, pass airfield information, tell you about any traffic that is known to them, along with any other information they feel appropriate for your flight. It is important however, that Air-Ground operators are not generally allowed to "clear" anyone to do "anything", although they may tell you to do something, it is at the pilot's discretion to follow any instructions given by an air-ground operator. (although generally, they have a pretty good idea what's going on, are pilots themselves, and actually do a very good job at helping you)

What has worked for me so far is "assume he's below the clouds and that I'm the only one daft enough to fly in the cloud on purpose".
You just have to pray that they're not stupid enough to actually be in IMC without a working mode C (or 3A) transponder and deliberately not talking to any ATSU. I think if that was the case, I would request a deconfliction service assuming that the "no height information" is the same height as you.

It is/was normal for Blackbushe based instructors working Farnborough West to ask for RIS/Traffic Service when doing upper airwork and climbing or descending through cloud, reverting to FIS/Basic when clear of cloud.
That is what I hear frequently on the radio at Biggin, so I assume that this is common practice.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 18:15
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Out of interest, what could a radio service (such as Stapleford) be able to offer?
Originally Posted by alex90
Please correct me if I am wrong - but I am pretty sure that Stapleford only has Air-Ground. The only service they are able to provide is an "Air-Ground Communication Service". This means that they are able to talk to you from a ground based radio, pass airfield information, tell you about any traffic that is known to them, along with any other information they feel appropriate for your flight. It is important however, that Air-Ground operators are not generally allowed to "clear" anyone to do "anything", although they may tell you to do something, it is at the pilot's discretion to follow any instructions given by an air-ground operator. (although generally, they have a pretty good idea what's going on, are pilots themselves, and actually do a very good job at helping you)
In other words, a BASIC service - i.e., no traffic information, no clearance, just information which may or may not be of assistance for your flight - (e.g.) weather conditions....
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 19:11
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Originally Posted by Steve6443
In other words, a BASIC service
Not even that in the UK. An A/G service is not even an air traffic service. CAP452 says so. An A/G operator is not authorised to provide Basic Service. Usually an AGCS Radio Licence itself specifies that the equipment is not to be used to provide an ATS.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 21:04
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I have found that there is often some 'Service Drift' with the type of service you receive, but don't count on it.
When flying in the Midlands, maybe tracking towards a VOR, I have been given Traffic information even though I only asked for a Basic service.
As I understand it although there is no legal requirement for an ATC unit to provide traffic information when under a Basic service the rules which military units operate under require them, wherever possible, to assist pilots to maintain safety. Of course legally speaking Basic service means no traffic information and that is part of the "contract" between the pilot and the controller and pilots should always assume this is the case. However locally we often work an RAF unit for basic service and they usually provide useful traffic information for which one is most grateful.

What really peeves me though is when pilots ask for Traffic service on a gin clear day thereby increasing controller workload and the service they can provide to other traffic.

I also understand that when the AEF are flying with cadets on board they are now required to request a traffic service - I guess this is a symptom of the blame culture after the odd collision when cadets have been on board.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 22:40
  #49 (permalink)  

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FFB, surely it's up to the ATCO to decide if a traffic service can be provided, or not. I have often heard controllers offering a basic service only, rather than the traffic service requested, "due to controller workload".

Can't say I blame them, sometimes the LARS frequencies become so busy (especially on fine weekends after a period of bad weather) that the amount of chatter becomes counterproductive to flight safety.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 23:07
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FFB, surely it's up to the ATCO to decide if a traffic service can be provided, or not. I have often heard controllers offering a basic service only, rather than the traffic service requested, "due to controller workload".

Can't say I blame them, sometimes the LARS frequencies become so busy (especially on fine weekends after a period of bad weather) that the amount of chatter becomes counterproductive to flight safety.
Yes of course any requested service can be declined by ATC. (talking about Class G airspace here).

I agree with you about RT workload on LARS at busy times but then when you hear some of the RT procedure......
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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http://microlights.elao.gr/docs/CAP4...20Aviation.pdf

https://www.bfgc.co.uk/VFR_Guide.pdf
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Old 17th May 2017, 10:37
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Talkdownman
Not even that in the UK. An A/G service is not even an air traffic service. CAP452 says so. An A/G operator is not authorised to provide Basic Service. Usually an AGCS Radio Licence itself specifies that the equipment is not to be used to provide an ATS.
AGCS 'Radio Licence' doesn't exist; it's a 'Certificate of Competence' and unlike ATS licenses such as ATC or FISO, does not require periodic checks of the competence of the holder by a CAA Authorised Examiner.(Yet?)
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Old 17th May 2017, 17:52
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Originally Posted by chevvron
AGCS 'Radio Licence' doesn't exist; it's a 'Certificate of Competence' and unlike ATS licenses such as ATC or FISO, does not require periodic checks of the competence of the holder by a CAA Authorised Examiner.(Yet?)
By AGCS 'Radio Licence' I am talking about the Wireless Telegraphy Act licence required for the radio from which to provide the AGCS. Go on, then, T, you describe it it a better way. How about 'Wireless Licence'? (I think they were about seven shillings and six pence...). Our 'Wireless Telegraphy Act licence required for the radio from which to provide the AGCS' comes with an Article 205 Approval which states:

Air Ground Communications services and services provided by a Clearance Delivery Officer are not Air Traffic Services, but may only be provided by a person holding a Radio Operator's certificate of competence (CA1308) issued by the Civil Aviation Authority and authorised by the Wireless Telegraphy Act licence holder.
Anyway, you know all that because you are an A/G examiner...in Surrey...so should know how to spell 'licences'...
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