Different Services and where to get them

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by tobster911

but if during training I'm only told to ask for basic service, and told I don't need the others, then that's what I'll think

That's not far off, actually. The day you want a traffic service is the day there are lots of people flying, but if you ask for one chances are you won't get one due to "controller workload" ... because there are lots of people flying.


On a crap day you'll get a traffic service if you ask for one (if you can first find a radar controller who works weekends, which you tend not to in my part of the country), but as there's nobody but you flying they won't be telling you much.

[foxmoth]

On a crap day you'll get a traffic service if you ask for one (if you can first find a radar controller who works weekends, which you tend not to in my part of the country), but as there's nobody but you flying they won't be telling you much.

I have flown S-N and had a traffic service from Farnborough on a crappy weekday, lots of other traffic around that I knew about and where they were because I had traffic service but many of these guys knew nothing about me, then got handed on to Brize and BHX, not so uch traffic but still nice to have that reasurance!

[alex90]

alex90, a listening squawk, something I've only just heard of today.

"Listening Squawk" is pretty straight forward, you tune in the frequency, make sure it is correctly set / listen on frequency to make sure you have the correct frequency, set the squawk to the predefined squawk. The controller knows you're listening, and can contact you if they wish, and you know that you can contact them if you wish too.

It essentially saves radio air-time, and a little effort, but in the case of an emergency, they may wish to know which type of aeroplane, how many people on board etc... which you would normally provide when asking for whichever service.

Something to note is that not all ATSU have listening squawks (I believe), and it may be best to look for the particular ATSU's guide / notes...etc...

Perhaps not condescending, but it does feel a bit like if I don't know, I shouldn't be flying, which isn't the right attitude, IMHO.

I don't think that this was the intention of anyone on here. I hope that I say this from all of us: you should never feel that way. A PPL is a licence to learn, not a confirmation of perfection! We ALL have had shortcomings in our training, whether with our flying skills instruction, or with our theoretical instruction. The importance is to realise these shortcomings, and rectifying them before featuring in an AAIB, which you are doing! I can do nothing but commend you for this, and I hope that others do too.

If you feel like experiencing a little busier airspace, PM me, and I'll be happy to show you what it is like out there - maybe get a zone crossing or two! (I fly out of Biggin Hill)

[BEagle]

foxmoth wrote:

Pretty much, to me a deconfliction service is over the top unless actually in IMC, otherwise they are giving you headings all over the place rather than just telling you about traffic you can probably spot and avoid if they tell you about it via a traffic service

The current restrictions on a Deconfliction Service are:

Deconfliction Service

Only available to IFR flights in Class G airspace. An ATCO will use radar to provide you with detailed traffic information on specific conflicting aircraft AND advice on how to avoid that aircraft. However, the pilot retains responsibility for collision avoidance; you can opt not to follow the ATCO’s advice.

However, do note that you may not fly under IFR - even in VMC - unless you hold at least a valid IR(R) or IMC(R). Pilots who hold legacy UK PPLs used to be permitted to fly IFR in VMC, but no longer. The privilege was removed in ANO 2016.

[foxmoth]

Yes, but I DO hold a valid IR so can fly IFR in class G - but it may still be VMC!

[Johnm]

There's much sound advice in here, but the concern I have is about the original poster's instruction.

I found quite early in my PPL career that going to instructors was a waste of time, because within a few hours of post PPL flying I'd been to more places and experienced more different environments than they had!

I suspect OP has a similar issue emerging.

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by BEagle

foxmoth wrote:

The current restrictions on a Deconfliction Service are:

However, do note that you may not fly under IFR - even in VMC - unless you hold at least a valid IR(R) or IMC(R). Pilots who hold legacy UK PPLs used to be permitted to fly IFR in VMC, but no longer. The privilege was removed in ANO 2016.

Controllers however are not required to know if a pilot has the requisite ratings and never have been so required. Having said that, it is useful to the controller if you advise your flight conditions and any change.

I've been out of LARS provision for over 8 years now since before the 'present' services were introduced and was wondering if De-confliction service is available in class E airspace.

[alex90]

I found quite early in my PPL career that going to instructors was a waste of time, because within a few hours of post PPL flying I'd been to more places and experienced more different environments than they had!

I think this really depends where you elect to do your training, and which instructors you choose. I have found that if you are in the "school" environment (rather than club); A large number of instructors are 200ish hours, CPL/ME/IR/FIs with brand new licences, who are just building hours before being let loose with a big flying bus - then yes, you may very well have that problem, especially if they had just done all their exams at that very school, as this would limit their experiences. But there are many instructors out there whose careers are instructing, and have thousands of hours, experienced all around the world.

It really depends on who you chose to instruct you!

[The_Pink_Panther]

MrAverage - thanks for posting 1434, I've just skimmed it at work and it looks more useful than a lot of other publications I've seen on what services are available. They either seem to be variations on the same on-page posters, or 300+ page tombs.

Tobster - I had the same problem, I learnt in the middle of nowhere and had to go actively looking for anything other than Class G. MATZ were within 20 mins, but we were lucky to get as much as Basic most times. I now fly from Coventry which is radar controlled under Birmingham's Class D; couple that with better ATSOCAS in that region, I'm spoilt for choice!

TPP

[MrAverage]

Pink Panther


Can't take credit for that as it was Beagle's posting........


Alex90


That's precisely why I only have mature and very experienced instructors doing it for the right reasons. (But I'm not condemning all hour builders)

[Johnm]

It really depends on who you chose to instruct you!

Phil Mathews or Irv Lee would be the benchmark for wide ranging GA skill and experience

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by chevvron

was wondering if De-confliction service is available in class E airspace.

DS is only available to IFR, whilst in Class E CAS IFR requires clearance and is separated regardless because it is CAS. The VFR in Class E don't need clearance, and VFR are not entitled to DS.

Or is CAP774 sending me slowly mad again...

[tobster911]

Thank you all for your most helpful responses

So, just to confirm my understanding:

ATSOCAS (as the name suggests) is outside controlled airspace, and it is in this airspace where one can obtain Basic or Traffic Service (or Deconfliction or progressive, but I shouldn't need these for my current operational needs).

ATSOCAS only applies when flying VFR in Class E, and also in Class G

If I went into controlled airspace, such as Southend Airport, I would just make a call *(before entering), but wouldn't request a service, so to speak. i.e "Southend Approach, G-ABCD". Then await a response, nothing about a service. Previously, I'd been told to do "Southend Approach, G-ABCD, request Basic Service".

A listening squawk is a great idea for busy radio. Simply set a Squawk code (defined by the frequency you're listening in to), and don't make any calls. The controller knows you're there, and two way comms can be established if necessary

If you feel like experiencing a little busier airspace, PM me, and I'll be happy to show you what it is like out there - maybe get a zone crossing or two! (I fly out of Biggin Hill)

If that wouldn't be too much of a problem Alex, that'd be really appreciated, thank you very much.

Thank you all once again

[BackPacker]

Originally Posted by tobster911

If I went into controlled airspace, such as Southend Airport, I would just make a call *(before entering), but wouldn't request a service, so to speak. i.e "Southend Approach, G-ABCD". Then await a response, nothing about a service. Previously, I'd been told to do "Southend Approach, G-ABCD, request Basic Service".

Just "Southend Approach, G-ABCD" and then waiting for them to call you back, is not incorrect. In fact, it's a lot better than telling your complete life story at your initial call - something you hear all too often.

But depending on what you want you may want to give them a tiny heads-up. So you may want to say something like:

"Southend Approach, G-ABCD request zone transit"
"Southend Approach, G-ABCD for landing"
"Southend Approach, G-ABCD request Basic Service" (*)

This doesn't add a lot of airtime to your message, but it does allow the controller to prioritise things on a busy frequency. Or, if it's really busy, to deny your request outright.

(*) The latter case would only be applicable if Southend Approach is able to provide a LARS (ATSOCAS) service outside their TMA, and if that's the service you wish to obtain. But if you intend to fly into the Southend TMA (or whatever they're managing), your initial call would be about that.

[The_Pink_Panther]

BEagle - thank you

MrAverage - remembering names from a previous page AND penning a response; you have high expectations of me ;-)

[Steve6443]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

"Southend Approach, G-ABCD request Basic Service" (*)


(*) The latter case would only be applicable if Southend Approach is able to provide a LARS (ATSOCAS) service outside their TMA, and if that's the service you wish to obtain. But if you intend to fly into the Southend TMA (or whatever they're managing), your initial call would be about that.

Has this changed? In the past, any old Thomas, Richard and Harold could offer you a basic service, with or without LARS, but has it changed in that offering a basic service relies on the controller having a Radar feed available?

The way I understood it is that, in the past, a basic service could be offered by all and sundry because they weren't expected to offer you traffic information apart from generalities such 'two in the circuit', 'one on long final' or similar, etc.

[BackPacker]

Steve, I agree my example may not have been totally clear. Yes, a Basic Service can be offered by a LARS service. But a Basic Service can also be offered by someone without a radar feed. For example, AFAIK, London Info doesn't (formally) have radar available.

(Rumour has it that London Info does have access to radar, but either the radar feed or the controllers are not certified, so they cannot use it to offer e.g. a Traffic Service. But it does help them in identifying aircraft positions.)

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

it does help them in identifying aircraft positions

The London Information conspicuity code (1177) helps the CAS sectors identify traffic which is in contact with it in case of incursion.

[chevvron]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Steve, I agree my example may not have been totally clear. Yes, a Basic Service can be offered by a LARS service. But a Basic Service can also be offered by someone without a radar feed. For example, AFAIK, London Info doesn't (formally) have radar available.

(Rumour has it that London Info does have access to radar, but either the radar feed or the controllers are not certified, so they cannot use it to offer e.g. a Traffic Service. But it does help them in identifying aircraft positions.)

The people who speak to you on London Info are not controllers, they are assistants with Area FISO Licenses and as such cannot 'use' radar ie identify individual aircraft, provide radar based ATSOCAs or issue executive instructions, they can only provide basic (flight information) service with proximity hazard warnings where it is apparent to them that two or more aircraft may get close to each other based on position reports.

[scifi]

I have found that there is often some 'Service Drift' with the type of service you receive, but don't count on it.
When flying in the Midlands, maybe tracking towards a VOR, I have been given Traffic information even though I only asked for a Basic service.


The only time I have ever asked for a Traffic Service, was when undergoing instruction in IMC conditions. If I was given some Traffic Information, I maybe would have then asked for some De-confliction advice.


I don't know what range they use when deciding to offer Traffic advice, but it seems to be about 3-5 miles, which with two planes on a closing heading, gives you about 60 seconds warning of the other aircraft.
.