Right of way

[Ralphy]

Hi!,

a PPL student here!

I'm in Germany and I'm using the Jeppesen books (as per my flying school).

After having read a couple of times some FAA books... I can say I like them way better than the ones provided here in Germany.

Anyway, to the point, my question is regarding the following statement in the Jeppesen book:

"Aircraft that are taking off always have the right of way"

I always thought it was the Aircraft that is LANDING the one that has the right of way...

Then I checked one of the FAA books and it states:

"14 CFR part 91, states that aircraft, while on final approach
to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other
aircraft in flight or operating on the surface."


I'm missing something here, as I don't think the Jeppeson would be so far off.

What am I missing?


thanks!,


Ralphy

[scifi]

Hi Ralphy, Its all a matter of split second timing... If you are waiting at a holding point before entering the runway, you must give way to airplanes who are on Final. Then enter the runway after they pass your location.


Once you are on the runway, you have the right of way, and further aircraft wanting to land must wait for you to depart, as two aircraft are not allowed on one runway together.
It can get a bit hectic at times on a busy GA airfield, with planes landing a few seconds after the other has lifted off.


The only time two or more aircraft are allowed on one runway, is when they are taxiing, and this is best done by agreeing their intentions on the radio first.
.

[2 sheds]

Ralphy
What you - and the reply above - are missing is that the only answer to your query is in the legislation, in your case in the SERA, not in re-worded half-truths. Refer to SERA!
2 s

[foxmoth]

The only time two or more aircraft are allowed on one runway, is when they are taxiing, and this is best done by agreeing their intentions on the radio first.

Wrong in many ways, with an air traffic service you can land/TO in formation, line up after and even get a land after clearance.

[Ralphy]

I've just checked SERA (as per 2 shed's suggestion) and this is what I found:


SERA.3210 Right-of-way
(c)(4) Landing. An aircraft in flight, or operating on the ground
or water, shall give way to aircraft landing or in the final
stages of an approach to land


So it's the same as the FAA excerpt from the book... but then the "Air law" Jepessen Book is wrong!:

"Aircraft that are taking off always have the right of way." (sic)

Btw, in that book (in fact I'm using the computer application) there's no mention of SERA whatsoever... and being the
"Standardised European Rules of the Air" is, to say the least, curious...

[KKoran]

Originally Posted by scifi

Hi Ralphy, Its all a matter of split second timing... If you are waiting at a holding point before entering the runway, you must give way to airplanes who are on Final. Then enter the runway after they pass your location.


Once you are on the runway, you have the right of way, and further aircraft wanting to land must wait for you to depart, as two aircraft are not allowed on one runway together.
It can get a bit hectic at times on a busy GA airfield, with planes landing a few seconds after the other has lifted off.


The only time two or more aircraft are allowed on one runway, is when they are taxiing, and this is best done by agreeing their intentions on the radio first.
.

I can't see how you came up with that interpretation of a relatively simple and straightforward regulation. The aircraft on final has the right of way. If an aircraft on final has to maneuver (go around, make s-turns, etc.) to avoid a departing aircraft, the pilot of the departing aircraft violated the regulation. This hold true even if the aircraft turns final after the departing aircraft enters the runway. There is no regulation that gives departing aircraft the right of way.

Let's look at it from the perspective of safety. The aircraft holding short could sit there for an hour with no increased risk. On the other hand, forcing an arriving aircraft to go around might result in a collision between the arriving and departing aircraft, exacerbate a crowded traffic pattern, or result in the arriving aircraft to run out of fuel (not likely, but under the 'wrong' circumstances, it could happen).

[OhNoCB]

I would stick with the books that your school recommends. Germany is an EASA country and operates according to European rules. FAA is the American system and operates to a different set of rules.

[TheOddOne]

I would stick with the books that your school recommends

Not only that, but make sure that you've bought the latest books. We had a student fail a couple of exams because they bought some old books on a popular auction site that were out of date.

TOO

[ChickenHouse]

Does the question relate to passing exam or is it about reality? Following a German Angst "Right" of way thinking is most probably a dangerous ticket to get killed.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Originally Posted by Islandlad

Take care - land after is not ICAO. Our friend is writing from Germany. Not sure about SERA.

What are the UK rules anout Formation takeoff and landing?

Memory is a little rusty but UK military was that a formation was considered as a single element for the issuance of clearances.
ie "Blackcat line-up, wind 220, 16 knots"
"Blackcat, clear take-off, wind 230 12 knots"

The clearance applied to all aircraft in that formation and not just those actually on the runway so 1 and 2 might line up and go, followed by 3 and 4.

When they returned to the circuit, they were treated as one element for the first circuit only, after which they were treated as individual aircraft. First circuit we could issue a "land in turn" clearance. If they rolled or did an overshoot for further circuit then it would be a a clearance issued for Blackcat 1, and if Blackact 2 called "finals gear down" he would either be given:
a) A "continue" if Blackcat 1 was not yet down.
b) A "Cleared to land, one on well up" if Blackcat 1 was on the runway but had passed the PAR building.(almost at midpoint)
c) A "Cleared to land" if Blackcat 1 had either landed and vacated, or executed an overshoot.

Going back a few years now and things may have changed. Certainly an expeditious way of getting multiple jets safely down and was tested when they flew the 16-ship formation which came back to Colt as 4 formations of 4 jags each.

[scifi]

Hi again Ralphy.... I think your statement... "Aircraft that are taking off always have the right of way". Is absolutely true, because...
To get into that state, they must have first given way to aircraft already on Final.
Also it is obvious that they have right of way over any aircraft or vehicle, wanting to cross, taxi or land on the runway. The right of way will change depending upon your position about the airfield, and the position of the other person.


If you operate from an uncontrolled airfield, there can be 4 aircraft in the circuit, you need to slot into this pattern seamlessly, and maintain your spacing, so that two aircraft are not on the runway at the same time.


The Lowest Common Denominator, which is what is required for PPL exams, would be an uncontrolled airfield without radios. Anything more is only relevant for the CPL exams, or for Red-Arrow type pilots.
.
.
ref.. CAA chapter xii (Sun-Loungers.), sub-section 3a (Beach-Towels, F.Os. for the use of.)
.

[oggers]

Hi Ralphy

So it's the same as the FAA excerpt from the book... but then the "Air law" Jepessen Book is wrong!:

The two are not mutually exclusive. In reality pilots are conforming to both statements day in and day out. It goes like this:

a) You wish to line-up. You check the approach and if there is an aircraft on final, you will wait.

b) You have turned final. There is an aircraft at the threshold. You continue approach but if they haven't taken off before you need to land you go around.