Crash'landings'
Player of Games
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
From: Flatland
The following article by a professor of aeronautics and pilot
at http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/possible.html is rather
interesting as an analysis of the issues behind engine
failure turnbacks...
-- Andrew
at http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/possible.html is rather
interesting as an analysis of the issues behind engine
failure turnbacks...
-- Andrew
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
Interesting article andrewc, I agree with most of it but wonder why they didn't try 45 to 60 degree AoB with flaps going down through the turn?
FWA NATCA,
I removed the description of the '180 turn' because I was worried that it might cause pilots who are not current in general, let alone in advanced handling, to try it without training and practice.
As the article posted by andrewc states, with training and practice it is a reasonably safe manouvre...to that I would add that with training and practice it's $hitloads safer than crashing into tall trees, freezing water, houses or busy roads. Why they didn't try it with flaps is beyond me in an otherwise comprehensive evaluation.
Also as the evaluation states...It's a standard requirement for glider pilots from 200'...the only difference between the aircraft types is glide ratio and therefore starting altitude...fixed wing aircraft have flaps to minimise the turn radius and help with reducing stall speed.
When I fly single engined aircraft I brief myself, particularly when the departure is not straight forward from an engine failure point of view. The same way as I brief my co-pilots when flying jets. I've been constantly amazed over the years how few professional pilots (without airline backgrounds) cannot do a departure/arrival brief to save themselves. What hope for your average PPL holder?
I flew close to 1000 hrs in SE aircraft in the PNG Highlands departing off 17% sloped, rough, curved airstrips at up to 10000' DA and over VERY nasty terrain, up to 16+ sectors a day and often with windshear and quartering tailwinds for takeoff or landing. Believe me that tends to focus your mind on the job at hand and what you might do in case of an engine failure.
When the ONLY places you are going to end up is either the side of a mountain sloped at 30 to 60 degrees and covered in vegetation ranging from tall Kunai grass to huge trees...or a white water river with boulders the size of houses then you tend to look at what's possible as opposed to what your several hundred hour instructor, who had yet to venture far from the circuit area, told you at ab initio stage.
The reason it is not taught is because generations of powered FW instructors have been told it is impossible, or at the very least incredibly risky...when pilots, who have not been taught how, crash trying it, on the spur of the moment, it just reinforces the preconcieved idea further.
IMO there is a huge % of Pilots out there, of whatever licence type, who either should not have a licence at all, or who while capable of the skills required, were not taught all the skills necesary to safely and competently pilot an aircraft. The reasons for this are that schools and aircraft manufacturers want everyone to fly and bend over backwards to get weak sisters through so that they can then rent or buy aircraft.
Most non professional pilots don't fly anything like enough to keep current and they virtually never practice emergency procedures, as witnessed by the abismal showing at Bienial Flight Reviews. A good mate is a very senior and hugely experienced Authorised Testing Officer for CASA and the horror stories he tells of conducting flight testing on candidates for initial issue or BFR send my blood cold...people even try and dictate to him what they are prepared to do and not do during the test
I would hate to think how many practice emergencies I have done in 10000 hours of flying in various charter, supplemental airline, 'major' airline and corporate jet operations...both administered by me as the checker and administered to me as checkie...it would be thousands...how many would the average ppl do in a life time...50? 100?. How many hours have I spent contemplating how to best cope with various scenarios that might pop up in my day to day operations as everything from SE bush pilot to corporate flight department CP...thousands more...how many the average PPL holder over a lifetime?
Various august bodies agonise over accident statistics but when it comes right down to it achieve very little...why? Because no-one seems prepared to tackle problems at the early stages and demand high enough standards at initial and recurrent training.
If doing that forces many people out because they can no longer afford it....TOUGH!!
Chuck.
FWA NATCA,
I removed the description of the '180 turn' because I was worried that it might cause pilots who are not current in general, let alone in advanced handling, to try it without training and practice.
As the article posted by andrewc states, with training and practice it is a reasonably safe manouvre...to that I would add that with training and practice it's $hitloads safer than crashing into tall trees, freezing water, houses or busy roads. Why they didn't try it with flaps is beyond me in an otherwise comprehensive evaluation.
Also as the evaluation states...It's a standard requirement for glider pilots from 200'...the only difference between the aircraft types is glide ratio and therefore starting altitude...fixed wing aircraft have flaps to minimise the turn radius and help with reducing stall speed.
When I fly single engined aircraft I brief myself, particularly when the departure is not straight forward from an engine failure point of view. The same way as I brief my co-pilots when flying jets. I've been constantly amazed over the years how few professional pilots (without airline backgrounds) cannot do a departure/arrival brief to save themselves. What hope for your average PPL holder?
I flew close to 1000 hrs in SE aircraft in the PNG Highlands departing off 17% sloped, rough, curved airstrips at up to 10000' DA and over VERY nasty terrain, up to 16+ sectors a day and often with windshear and quartering tailwinds for takeoff or landing. Believe me that tends to focus your mind on the job at hand and what you might do in case of an engine failure.
When the ONLY places you are going to end up is either the side of a mountain sloped at 30 to 60 degrees and covered in vegetation ranging from tall Kunai grass to huge trees...or a white water river with boulders the size of houses then you tend to look at what's possible as opposed to what your several hundred hour instructor, who had yet to venture far from the circuit area, told you at ab initio stage.
The reason it is not taught is because generations of powered FW instructors have been told it is impossible, or at the very least incredibly risky...when pilots, who have not been taught how, crash trying it, on the spur of the moment, it just reinforces the preconcieved idea further.
IMO there is a huge % of Pilots out there, of whatever licence type, who either should not have a licence at all, or who while capable of the skills required, were not taught all the skills necesary to safely and competently pilot an aircraft. The reasons for this are that schools and aircraft manufacturers want everyone to fly and bend over backwards to get weak sisters through so that they can then rent or buy aircraft.
Most non professional pilots don't fly anything like enough to keep current and they virtually never practice emergency procedures, as witnessed by the abismal showing at Bienial Flight Reviews. A good mate is a very senior and hugely experienced Authorised Testing Officer for CASA and the horror stories he tells of conducting flight testing on candidates for initial issue or BFR send my blood cold...people even try and dictate to him what they are prepared to do and not do during the test
I would hate to think how many practice emergencies I have done in 10000 hours of flying in various charter, supplemental airline, 'major' airline and corporate jet operations...both administered by me as the checker and administered to me as checkie...it would be thousands...how many would the average ppl do in a life time...50? 100?. How many hours have I spent contemplating how to best cope with various scenarios that might pop up in my day to day operations as everything from SE bush pilot to corporate flight department CP...thousands more...how many the average PPL holder over a lifetime?
Various august bodies agonise over accident statistics but when it comes right down to it achieve very little...why? Because no-one seems prepared to tackle problems at the early stages and demand high enough standards at initial and recurrent training.
If doing that forces many people out because they can no longer afford it....TOUGH!!
Chuck.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
I've only crashed the once, and didn't enjoy it. I've helped investigate far too many.
My best piece of advice concerning take-off, is that for EVERY take-off, in any aircraft, in any field, work out in advance what you'll do at each point if there's an engine failure, brief it, and if necessary stick to it. For example "in the event of an EFATO I'll attempt to stop on the runway, if too high up to 600 ft, I'll turn slightly left and land in the wheatfields there, above 600 ft I'll turn right and fly a tight circuit back onto the runway". If you brief it, you might do it.
On landing, fly a circuit that so far as possible, would allow you to glide to the runway, or at-least a suitable landing site if the engine were to stop at any point. That probably means a tighter circuit than most light aircraft pilots are used to, so be it.
Higher, never fly where you couldn't land or at-least ditch, avoid low flight over forest etc - remember you've only the one engine.
G
My best piece of advice concerning take-off, is that for EVERY take-off, in any aircraft, in any field, work out in advance what you'll do at each point if there's an engine failure, brief it, and if necessary stick to it. For example "in the event of an EFATO I'll attempt to stop on the runway, if too high up to 600 ft, I'll turn slightly left and land in the wheatfields there, above 600 ft I'll turn right and fly a tight circuit back onto the runway". If you brief it, you might do it.
On landing, fly a circuit that so far as possible, would allow you to glide to the runway, or at-least a suitable landing site if the engine were to stop at any point. That probably means a tighter circuit than most light aircraft pilots are used to, so be it.
Higher, never fly where you couldn't land or at-least ditch, avoid low flight over forest etc - remember you've only the one engine.
G
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 10
From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Genghis spot on. Bomber Command circuits should be banned unless they are dictated by location etc.
I've never crashed (so far) but I've had some interesting "arrivals"
As mattpilot said, gliding in with the propellor making an interesting intersection in your line of vision rather than whizzing around at idle speed makes a BIG difference to
a) the glide performance
b) for those fortunate enough to fly taildraggers you have no propwash over the tailfeathers which makes directional control once on the ground interesting if your brakes are of the "minimal" variety
I like to practive PFL's when I go flying (lot's of big fields in East Anglia) and I never fail to amaze myself how badly the first one nearly always goes......... Strangely enough it went fine when I did my bi-annual checkflight. Since then I've found that talking to myself helps ie describing out loud what you are doing seems to help the thought processes as I had done on my bi-annual
I've never crashed (so far) but I've had some interesting "arrivals"
As mattpilot said, gliding in with the propellor making an interesting intersection in your line of vision rather than whizzing around at idle speed makes a BIG difference to
a) the glide performance
b) for those fortunate enough to fly taildraggers you have no propwash over the tailfeathers which makes directional control once on the ground interesting if your brakes are of the "minimal" variety
I like to practive PFL's when I go flying (lot's of big fields in East Anglia) and I never fail to amaze myself how badly the first one nearly always goes......... Strangely enough it went fine when I did my bi-annual checkflight. Since then I've found that talking to myself helps ie describing out loud what you are doing seems to help the thought processes as I had done on my bi-annual
Last edited by LowNSlow; 13th July 2002 at 04:46.
