Do PPL ground exams have to be sat at the same school you're training at?
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Do PPL ground exams have to be sat at the same school you're training at?
Trying to cut costs of achieving the PPL wherever possible, but my school charges £45 per exam sitting 
; there are other schools nearby which charge a more reasonable £20-25ish per exam.
So can the exams be sat elsewhere? If so that could mean a saving of at least £20 x 9. . . you do the maths
; there are other schools nearby which charge a more reasonable £20-25ish per exam. So can the exams be sat elsewhere? If so that could mean a saving of at least £20 x 9. . . you do the maths
So can the exams be sat elsewhere?
I see no reason why not.
FCL.210 Training course
Applicants for a BPL, SPL or PPL shall complete a training course at an ATO. The course shall include theoretical knowledge and flight instruction appropriate to the privileges given.
Applicants for a BPL, SPL or PPL shall complete a training course at an ATO. The course shall include theoretical knowledge and flight instruction appropriate to the privileges given.
FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
(a) Responsibilities of the applicant
(1) Applicants shall take the entire set of examinations for a specific licence or rating under the responsibility of one Member State.
(2) Applicants shall only take the theoretical knowledge examination when recommended by the approved training organisation (ATO) responsible for their training, once they have completed the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction to a satisfactory standard.
(3) The recommendation by an ATO shall be valid for 12 months. If the applicant has failed to attempt at least one theoretical knowledge examination paper within this period of validity, the need for further training shall be determined by the ATO, based on the needs of the applicant.
(a) Responsibilities of the applicant
(1) Applicants shall take the entire set of examinations for a specific licence or rating under the responsibility of one Member State.
(2) Applicants shall only take the theoretical knowledge examination when recommended by the approved training organisation (ATO) responsible for their training, once they have completed the appropriate elements of the training course of theoretical knowledge instruction to a satisfactory standard.
(3) The recommendation by an ATO shall be valid for 12 months. If the applicant has failed to attempt at least one theoretical knowledge examination paper within this period of validity, the need for further training shall be determined by the ATO, based on the needs of the applicant.
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Students are able to change schools partway through the training. Problems may be obtaining records of training/exams from one school to another but, if a school goes bust the student is not expected to start from scratch at a new school.
So, I repeat, I don't see why not.
So, I repeat, I don't see why not.
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Don't think anyone ever charged me for taking an exam. Two minutes' work of someone's time to check my ticked boxes against the crib sheet.
I seem to recall the instructors were none to keen to administer the exams either...so I'm thinking the admin burden was a little more than 2 minutes.
Also, don't they have be invigilated anymore?
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You don't have to do the exams at the same school as your flight training. However we only accept external exams where a student has transferred from another school. We don't accept them done elsewhere on our students and neither do we provide them to students of other schools.
There is a lot of work involved I gaining and maintaining the approvals for all our courses including ground exams so why would we or any other school give them away?
There is a lot of work involved I gaining and maintaining the approvals for all our courses including ground exams so why would we or any other school give them away?
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A more interesting question is why are these exams stuck in the dark ages? Most other industries do their vocational qualifications on computer based facilities. Some of them (IT & Finance) are massively more complicated than the PPL exams (and it isn't even close) and just as regulated (in the case of finance, possibly even more so). I would have these could have been farmed out to the like of Pearson, decades ago????
Even some the advanced junior doctor exams are done on CBT now.
Even some the advanced junior doctor exams are done on CBT now.
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They are moving that way. A lot of it is down to funding to actually get it done. Also they are a revenue line for schools so they are not overly keen to see that lost.
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I'm training at a school ten minutes drive from my house. I'm going to take my first two exams at a school one hours drive from where I live...
The training school I'm completely happy with do not have an examiner available, to make my Air Law and Op Procedures papers until the next of November. I was a bit miffed about having to wait so long (possibly impacting what I imagine to be the normal rate of progress - soon ready to solo) and said I'd take the crucial exam (Air Law elsewhere). They didn't seem to have a problem with this nor did the school I contacted for help. I didn't give the name of the school away but they talked to one another and there are no problems. With any luck I'll take all the others at my local place.
If cost is the issue I'd put that to your current school and see what they say.
The training school I'm completely happy with do not have an examiner available, to make my Air Law and Op Procedures papers until the next of November. I was a bit miffed about having to wait so long (possibly impacting what I imagine to be the normal rate of progress - soon ready to solo) and said I'd take the crucial exam (Air Law elsewhere). They didn't seem to have a problem with this nor did the school I contacted for help. I didn't give the name of the school away but they talked to one another and there are no problems. With any luck I'll take all the others at my local place.
If cost is the issue I'd put that to your current school and see what they say.
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TOFO,
I think there is an exception on the navigation & planning paper where you may want to mark the quality of the lines / other elements which may impact the result. Although there are ways around this - it won't be the same. Also, something to note is that the answers aren't always correct on the CAA papers, I have found several errors on each of my papers - the examiner was able to see that these were in fact answer sheet errors and not my mistakes. It would have seriously affected my overall result on my exams!
I can build you a basic MCQ in a matter of hours, (maybe a few weeks with full content management system for test administration, and maybe a few months with the full system including payment to the CAA, automatic certificate, etc... And pre-printed PPL forms! But the issue is more about who is in charge of the system, and how much thee greedy companies are charging for the pleasure of their service!
Also - re: doctors - although some CBT is done on the computer - there is considerable training that is still assessed manually or verbally. Which I think is paramount to the profession! ;-)
I think there is an exception on the navigation & planning paper where you may want to mark the quality of the lines / other elements which may impact the result. Although there are ways around this - it won't be the same. Also, something to note is that the answers aren't always correct on the CAA papers, I have found several errors on each of my papers - the examiner was able to see that these were in fact answer sheet errors and not my mistakes. It would have seriously affected my overall result on my exams!
I can build you a basic MCQ in a matter of hours, (maybe a few weeks with full content management system for test administration, and maybe a few months with the full system including payment to the CAA, automatic certificate, etc... And pre-printed PPL forms! But the issue is more about who is in charge of the system, and how much thee greedy companies are charging for the pleasure of their service!
Also - re: doctors - although some CBT is done on the computer - there is considerable training that is still assessed manually or verbally. Which I think is paramount to the profession! ;-)
Standards Document 11 is being reviewed and amended, to be released shortly - the previous version was withdrawn in July 2016.
No-one other than an a GR Examiner and the applicant may view the papers, the applicant's answer sheet or the master answer list. It is totally unacceptable for
Unless, of course, that person is an Examiner with GR status (not just FE status).
I recently heard of a school which allowed a groundschool instructor to set and mark the papers, leaving the applicant's answer sheet in the CFI's in tray.... No wonder the answers leak out.
It is hoped that the next iteration of the PPL exams (due to be reviewed in Jan 2017) may be taken using an IT system at the training organisation - but to make that cheat-proof will be difficult unless a dedicated exam room is set up with a computer system linked directly to the CAA's servers. So invigilation will still be required, but more importantly if an applicant passes the paper with less than 100%, it will become a requirement for a GR examiner to debrief the incorrect answers, to ensure that the applicant knows why he/she ticked the wrong answer.
And no, the new exams won't expect you to calculate the local time in Bombay!
No-one other than an a GR Examiner and the applicant may view the papers, the applicant's answer sheet or the master answer list. It is totally unacceptable for
Two minutes' work of someone's time to check my ticked boxes against the crib sheet.
I recently heard of a school which allowed a groundschool instructor to set and mark the papers, leaving the applicant's answer sheet in the CFI's in tray.... No wonder the answers leak out.
It is hoped that the next iteration of the PPL exams (due to be reviewed in Jan 2017) may be taken using an IT system at the training organisation - but to make that cheat-proof will be difficult unless a dedicated exam room is set up with a computer system linked directly to the CAA's servers. So invigilation will still be required, but more importantly if an applicant passes the paper with less than 100%, it will become a requirement for a GR examiner to debrief the incorrect answers, to ensure that the applicant knows why he/she ticked the wrong answer.
And no, the new exams won't expect you to calculate the local time in Bombay!
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It is hoped that the next iteration of the PPL exams
Example: "who cares what the precise details of the wx limits for that type of licence are, if that's the forecast there's no way I personally am going flying" is a "safe" answer which I claim should be accepted.
Example: any nav answer to within a few degrees or a couple of miles should be accepted, as you aren't expecting the PPL to fly any more accurately than that anyway.
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JJ1999,
Prior to doing my skills tests about 4 years ago, I'd got a little behind with keeping exams getting ticked off at the same rate as my flight training.
I chose the 2 subjects I was finding the trickiest, found a ground school specialist to help give me some focused tuition, and the test at the end.
My school wasn't set up to do RT, so I had to find somewhere else to do that anyway.
As long as you sit the test with an examiner, your pass is valid. This may have changed, but it worked for me.
CFI wasn't thrilled, but I explained it was purely a time issue (not cost as in your case), but all he needed was the signed documentation from what I'd done. He bundled those with the ones I'd sat at his school, and sent it off to the CAA.
I think i paid less than you quoted per exam, but I also paid for every minute of ground tuition.
Don't look at your exam costs in isolation. If you picked the cheapest ground school cost, cheapest instructor cost, and cheapest membership, I'd bet your business model would fall over pretty quickly. Take a bigger picture view; 20 x 9 is peanuts compared to what your flying will cost, so weight it up in terms of supporting your flying school/club.
TPP
Prior to doing my skills tests about 4 years ago, I'd got a little behind with keeping exams getting ticked off at the same rate as my flight training.
I chose the 2 subjects I was finding the trickiest, found a ground school specialist to help give me some focused tuition, and the test at the end.
My school wasn't set up to do RT, so I had to find somewhere else to do that anyway.
As long as you sit the test with an examiner, your pass is valid. This may have changed, but it worked for me.
CFI wasn't thrilled, but I explained it was purely a time issue (not cost as in your case), but all he needed was the signed documentation from what I'd done. He bundled those with the ones I'd sat at his school, and sent it off to the CAA.
I think i paid less than you quoted per exam, but I also paid for every minute of ground tuition.
Don't look at your exam costs in isolation. If you picked the cheapest ground school cost, cheapest instructor cost, and cheapest membership, I'd bet your business model would fall over pretty quickly. Take a bigger picture view; 20 x 9 is peanuts compared to what your flying will cost, so weight it up in terms of supporting your flying school/club.
TPP
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Thank you for the replies everyone, all really helpful.
TPP,
Actually, the school I will be training at is probably one of the most expensive in the country. . . my stupid circumstances mean it is my only option right now and as a result, the ground school will all be self-study to save money.
If a cheaper school will let me just sit the exams there, that £20 x 9 saving can go towards actual flying lessons at my school, which I think is a better way to spend it.
There are several other schools nearby, and NONE of them charge more than £30 per exam. . . does that mean all those schools are of much lower quality?
TPP,
Actually, the school I will be training at is probably one of the most expensive in the country. . . my stupid circumstances mean it is my only option right now and as a result, the ground school will all be self-study to save money.
If a cheaper school will let me just sit the exams there, that £20 x 9 saving can go towards actual flying lessons at my school, which I think is a better way to spend it.
There are several other schools nearby, and NONE of them charge more than £30 per exam. . . does that mean all those schools are of much lower quality?
Last edited by JumboJet1999; 19th Dec 2016 at 13:47.
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It is hoped that the next iteration of the PPL exams (due to be reviewed in Jan 2017)
55 questions in each of the Nav and Tech groups and 10 for the Comm would fit the bill nicely.
...or, just one exam (ideally).
TOO
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Even more to be hoped, but not to be expected, is that multiple choice would be junked and replaced by a human being reading the answer paper.
10 years ago I did my IT exams at Pearson and last year I did my CeMAP exams with the same outfit. They were fkn hard and a gazillion times a better test of knowledge than the PPL exams.
Keeping the exams prehistoric will be industry bureaucratic/economic agenda...nothing to do with the assessment of acquired/achieved knowledge.
Can't speak of CPL/ATPL stuff as I've never seen them, but as acknowledged above, some (not all) of post graduate Junior Doctor assessment is now done on CBT, so that's shows you the scope of progress. I know someone who is doing them at the moment and, trust me, they are extremely challenging. For completeness, I should mention that the NHS stuff is not outsourced (I think that would be politically a step to far).
As for security, regulation and invigilation, come on, get real. Security in a flying school, utterly a variable feast. In the one I was in 2/10 (and only this high because I was ex-military and raised the bar a tiny wee bit). Security at the Pearson centres 10/10 everytime....good enough for DVLA and the Financial Conduct Authority.
PS I'm retired...I don't work for anybody...just calling it as it is.
As for security, regulation and invigilation, come on, get real. Security in a flying school, utterly a variable feast.
If the laxness persists, the alternative will be as for the CPL e-exams.
As for the new papers, it was originally our intention to combine certain subjects, but the Authority told us that to do so would increase costs
...The style of questions, scope and 'granularity' of answer limits have been agreed by the working group, in response to criticism of the current papers. For example, no 'Is the answer A. 1 and 3, B. 2 and 3, C. 1 and 5 or D. 2 and 4' nonsense. Finding 4 plausible answers is quite hard - for example, heading calculation with 5° of drift applied correctly (e.g. 045°), drift applied in the wrong direction (035°) and drift omitted (040°) are 3 plausible ways an applicant could answer - but a fourth?