Microlight, Permit or C of A ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Microlight, Permit or C of A ?
I'm fantasising about buying an Ikarus c42, rather than renting spamcans.
If I did, and it was light enough to qualify as a microlight, would I have the choice of registering it as a microlight, a Permit aircraft or a CofA aircraft?
I believe that maintenance costs of a microlight < costs for permit <costs for CofA, BUT
I suspect that hours flying a microlight wouldn't count towards my EASA PPL currency.
AND
Prestwick and Glasgow don't allow microlights (though there IS a Eurostar at the former).
So, do you have the choice of registering a microlight as a permit aircraft? And does that confer advantages that outweigh any additional maintenance costs?
If I did, and it was light enough to qualify as a microlight, would I have the choice of registering it as a microlight, a Permit aircraft or a CofA aircraft?
I believe that maintenance costs of a microlight < costs for permit <costs for CofA, BUT
I suspect that hours flying a microlight wouldn't count towards my EASA PPL currency.
AND
Prestwick and Glasgow don't allow microlights (though there IS a Eurostar at the former).
So, do you have the choice of registering a microlight as a permit aircraft? And does that confer advantages that outweigh any additional maintenance costs?
As ever Google is your friend 
Of the dozens of these registered on the CAA website all but one are in the Microlight category. The only "odd" one is G-SIMM which is an IKARUS C42 FB100 VLA - maybe contact the owner for a chat?
Of the dozens of these registered on the CAA website all but one are in the Microlight category. The only "odd" one is G-SIMM which is an IKARUS C42 FB100 VLA - maybe contact the owner for a chat?
The Eurostar can be either. The only real difference being an auxiliary electric fuel pump fitted to the non-microlight. Just one extra panel switch.
There's a bit of an issue at the moment. http://www.lightaircraftassociation....inspection.pdf
There's a bit of an issue at the moment. http://www.lightaircraftassociation....inspection.pdf
A small number of aircraft (Escapade, kit built Eurostar for example ) can make the switch for mostly just paperwork.
A type approved / factory built C42 you can't.
G
A type approved / factory built C42 you can't.
G
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
I think there are 2 ways of doing this:
a) renew your SEP every 2 years by test (probably around £500), then fly the Ikarus on your SEP. As you say, C42 hours don't count towards your SEP. You'll need to do some training in the C42 and get it signed off by a microlight instructor.
b) Obtain a NPPL(M). Involves training (typically at £130 an hour dual) and a test.
b) is probably more expensive in the short term, but cheaper over several years.
The plus with a) is that it would be easier to regain currency on an EASA aircraft should you wish to return to exercising your SEP rating on such.
I think the C42 is a great aircraft, I fly one purely for my own amusement but they are a bit limited by weather, especially in this part of the World!
TOO
a) renew your SEP every 2 years by test (probably around £500), then fly the Ikarus on your SEP. As you say, C42 hours don't count towards your SEP. You'll need to do some training in the C42 and get it signed off by a microlight instructor.
b) Obtain a NPPL(M). Involves training (typically at £130 an hour dual) and a test.
b) is probably more expensive in the short term, but cheaper over several years.
The plus with a) is that it would be easier to regain currency on an EASA aircraft should you wish to return to exercising your SEP rating on such.
I think the C42 is a great aircraft, I fly one purely for my own amusement but they are a bit limited by weather, especially in this part of the World!
TOO
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all! Yes, I tried Googling (and even the CAA website) - but had only limited success.
So my strategy:
1) stay with the PPL as long as the health lasts - let's be honest, the GA demographic makes that a factor ;-)
2) Bag the minimum hours in a PA28 to maintain currency. Expensive, but hardly a chore.
3) Save up for an Ikarus for fair-weather bimbling.
4) Meanwhile, look for a share of anything, anywhere in central Scotland. Shares really don't seem to come up very often.
5) Move to Gloucester or Blackbushe. I get green eyes looking at all the shares going in UKGA news, down south.
So my strategy:
1) stay with the PPL as long as the health lasts - let's be honest, the GA demographic makes that a factor ;-)
2) Bag the minimum hours in a PA28 to maintain currency. Expensive, but hardly a chore.
3) Save up for an Ikarus for fair-weather bimbling.
4) Meanwhile, look for a share of anything, anywhere in central Scotland. Shares really don't seem to come up very often.
5) Move to Gloucester or Blackbushe. I get green eyes looking at all the shares going in UKGA news, down south.
1) stay with the PPL as long as the health lasts - let's be honest, the GA demographic makes that a factor ;-)
you pay your money and make your choice.
There are a few airfields that don't allow microlights but many of those that do have a lower landing fee for microlights than for GA types. I did hear that a few folk flying GA versions of aircraft also available as microlights would try to claim microlight landing fees and equally, a few folk flying microlight versions of aircraft also available as GA types would try to bluff their way into non microlight accepting airfields (not me, of course
).
Now most airfields have the internet in their control towers they have G-INFO on and tell you whether you are GA or microlight when you go to pay your landing fee.
It is also worth noting, if you are going to meander across the water, the regulations for France are easier for microlights I believe. The required equipment fit (transponders?) is less in some cases.
If you are not apt to cross the water it may be better for you to look at the many homebuilt GA types and consider joining a syndicate on one. Many will be somewhat cheaper to buy into than a C42.
There are a few airfields that don't allow microlights but many of those that do have a lower landing fee for microlights than for GA types. I did hear that a few folk flying GA versions of aircraft also available as microlights would try to claim microlight landing fees and equally, a few folk flying microlight versions of aircraft also available as GA types would try to bluff their way into non microlight accepting airfields (not me, of course
).Now most airfields have the internet in their control towers they have G-INFO on and tell you whether you are GA or microlight when you go to pay your landing fee.
It is also worth noting, if you are going to meander across the water, the regulations for France are easier for microlights I believe. The required equipment fit (transponders?) is less in some cases.
If you are not apt to cross the water it may be better for you to look at the many homebuilt GA types and consider joining a syndicate on one. Many will be somewhat cheaper to buy into than a C42.
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The costs of running a microlight on a permit or a similarly engined light aircraft on a permit are virtually identical (although depreciation will be higher if it is a newish microlight). I have no idea why Prestwick still does not allow microlights to visit. The Eurostar based there is a light aircraft (with the electric fuel pump!). Shares come up in it from time to time. If you have your heart set on a C42, there are several fields in the area you could possibly base one at that are a lot cheaper than Glasgow! And shares might come up from time to time at Strathaven. However, the hours on all but the one VLA C42 mentioned would not count towards maintaining your SEP.
Why not buy or syndicate a LAA permit light aircraft and your dilemna is solved?
Why not buy or syndicate a LAA permit light aircraft and your dilemna is solved?
the regulations for France are easier for microlights I believe. The required equipment fit (transponders?) is less in some cases.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Big_J,
Welcome to Pprune!
You are not the first and will not be the last to consider the routes you are looking at.
And the aviation landscape has become very confusing over the years!
May I start with declaring an interest, since I own the airfield at Strathaven. I would like to think that Strathaven offers just what you are looking for: affordable and fun leisure and recreational flying. Please come and visit and have a cuppa and a biscuit and see just what is based here. You'll never see the aircraft here at Glasgow (it is £140-odd for a visitor to land there!) or at Prestwick (why bother: it costs, some are banned and there is a good pub near the Bute strip!) or even at Cumbernauld (with its c£15 landing fee)
To answer some of your questions: it is possible to swap kit-built versions of some aircraft between the microlight and light aircraft category. We had a Eurostar here that was a light aircraft based at Prestwick, then re-registered as a microlight (and therefore now banned from PIK!) Usually, as well, the microlight version of an aircraft is higher priced than the light aircraft version, so it would be unlikely to make sense to take a microlight C42 and re-register it as a light aircraft, if that was possible for that particular type.
Microlight and LAA-types are on permit to fly: so annual costs very similar. CofA is another story.
Microlight hours don't count towards keeping your EASA SEP current. Though there is talk of that changing - see what I mean about a complicated changing landscape!
What I think you need to do:
Decide if you ever want to fly at night, or IFR: not much point in Scotland in a single engine, there's almost nowhere affordable to fly to!
Decide if you might want to hire a Cessna/Piper or fly a four seater.
If so, you will need an EASA licence fairly soon.
An option: get an NPPL with a Microlight rating (if you want to fly a C42) and a SSEA rating. If you just want to fly some of the LAA light aircraft, you can skip the Micro rating.
In addition, get an EASA LAPL. (which means surrendering your SEP since you can have ony one EASA licence)
Keep your NPPL valid with 12 hours every two years: and if you have a Micro C42 then you could do 11 of those hours on that.
Do your one hour with an instructor on a light aircraft, this will keep your SSEA rating valid on your NPPL.
The EASA LAPL is valid for life, with currency determined before every flight rather that once every two years. If you don't have the required light aircraft hours to maintain LAPL currency - which you won't if you only have 1 hour SSEA and the rest microlight - then you can use your NPPL SSEA to acquire the necessary LAPL light aircraft hours!
Of course, after the "only fly EASA aircraft on EASA licence" rules come in, you would need to fly the light aircraft hours in an LAA aircraft to revalidate your LAPL.
But I would like to think you wouldn't be too bothered with EASA aircraft if you own your own.
Dare I also add, it amazes me that so few flying school operators seem to know much about all this: it is transformational stuff for private flying.
Welcome to Pprune!
You are not the first and will not be the last to consider the routes you are looking at.
And the aviation landscape has become very confusing over the years!
May I start with declaring an interest, since I own the airfield at Strathaven. I would like to think that Strathaven offers just what you are looking for: affordable and fun leisure and recreational flying. Please come and visit and have a cuppa and a biscuit and see just what is based here. You'll never see the aircraft here at Glasgow (it is £140-odd for a visitor to land there!) or at Prestwick (why bother: it costs, some are banned and there is a good pub near the Bute strip!) or even at Cumbernauld (with its c£15 landing fee)
To answer some of your questions: it is possible to swap kit-built versions of some aircraft between the microlight and light aircraft category. We had a Eurostar here that was a light aircraft based at Prestwick, then re-registered as a microlight (and therefore now banned from PIK!) Usually, as well, the microlight version of an aircraft is higher priced than the light aircraft version, so it would be unlikely to make sense to take a microlight C42 and re-register it as a light aircraft, if that was possible for that particular type.
Microlight and LAA-types are on permit to fly: so annual costs very similar. CofA is another story.
Microlight hours don't count towards keeping your EASA SEP current. Though there is talk of that changing - see what I mean about a complicated changing landscape!
What I think you need to do:
Decide if you ever want to fly at night, or IFR: not much point in Scotland in a single engine, there's almost nowhere affordable to fly to!
Decide if you might want to hire a Cessna/Piper or fly a four seater.
If so, you will need an EASA licence fairly soon.
An option: get an NPPL with a Microlight rating (if you want to fly a C42) and a SSEA rating. If you just want to fly some of the LAA light aircraft, you can skip the Micro rating.
In addition, get an EASA LAPL. (which means surrendering your SEP since you can have ony one EASA licence)
Keep your NPPL valid with 12 hours every two years: and if you have a Micro C42 then you could do 11 of those hours on that.
Do your one hour with an instructor on a light aircraft, this will keep your SSEA rating valid on your NPPL.
The EASA LAPL is valid for life, with currency determined before every flight rather that once every two years. If you don't have the required light aircraft hours to maintain LAPL currency - which you won't if you only have 1 hour SSEA and the rest microlight - then you can use your NPPL SSEA to acquire the necessary LAPL light aircraft hours!
Of course, after the "only fly EASA aircraft on EASA licence" rules come in, you would need to fly the light aircraft hours in an LAA aircraft to revalidate your LAPL.
But I would like to think you wouldn't be too bothered with EASA aircraft if you own your own.
Dare I also add, it amazes me that so few flying school operators seem to know much about all this: it is transformational stuff for private flying.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Glasgow
Age: 40
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Eurostar at PIK is the group A version - essentially identical to the micolight version other than a fuel pump and paperwork. Its on a permit to fly - costs are generally the same as if it was the micolight variant (they sometimes have shares available - if you're interested, contact them via Prestwick Flying Club, although they do vet other group members carefully).
However as others say - most aircraft are one thing or another, you can't easily switch between certification schemes. Also if you are paying someone to do the maintenance anyway - the costs end up pretty similar.
As you say - PIK doesn't allow microlights (after an incident a few years ago when, I understand, a group of microlight owners made a claim against the airport, after their flex wings were damaged by wind from a 747 engine). Landing fees for based club aircraft are much lower (under £9) than what visitors (or what aircraft based at the flight centre) pay.
There are advantages and disadvantages of all types and locations.
XA - of course - some of your based aircraft fly into Prestwick for fuel... people complain about Strathavan not being the smoothest in places and grass in a Scottish winter can get a bit muddy. There are also ownership limitations.
Cumbernauld is quite high up so is more likely to be clouded in.
It would all depend on what sort of flying you want to do, where you live, what access to an aircraft you want, whether you're happy doing work on the aircraft yourself...
However as others say - most aircraft are one thing or another, you can't easily switch between certification schemes. Also if you are paying someone to do the maintenance anyway - the costs end up pretty similar.
As you say - PIK doesn't allow microlights (after an incident a few years ago when, I understand, a group of microlight owners made a claim against the airport, after their flex wings were damaged by wind from a 747 engine). Landing fees for based club aircraft are much lower (under £9) than what visitors (or what aircraft based at the flight centre) pay.
There are advantages and disadvantages of all types and locations.
XA - of course - some of your based aircraft fly into Prestwick for fuel... people complain about Strathavan not being the smoothest in places and grass in a Scottish winter can get a bit muddy. There are also ownership limitations.
Cumbernauld is quite high up so is more likely to be clouded in.
It would all depend on what sort of flying you want to do, where you live, what access to an aircraft you want, whether you're happy doing work on the aircraft yourself...
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of what I would have posted has already been said, my preference would be for a permit aircraft to keep my SEP going, as far as not being able to land a microlight at some airfields goes, there are actually more microlight airfields that ONLY allow microlights, and you are far more likely to want to use these than the bigger ones that do not.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's great, folks - thanks for the expert and helpful replies!
Like most GA pilots, I have split missions: I want to be able to fly a 4 seater, to take subsets of family and friends around; but realize I'll be doing most of my flying solo or with 1 passenger.
I'm EASA LAPL now, working towards my PPL; so I think I'll keep current on a 4 seater so that I can hire when needed; but try to fly most of my hours on something very much less expensive per-hour!
XA (aka CMcK): I actually flew a few hours at Strathaven a couple of years ago, before I decided I wanted the LAPL. You have a lovely airfield, and I may pop down again and say hi.
Like most GA pilots, I have split missions: I want to be able to fly a 4 seater, to take subsets of family and friends around; but realize I'll be doing most of my flying solo or with 1 passenger.
I'm EASA LAPL now, working towards my PPL; so I think I'll keep current on a 4 seater so that I can hire when needed; but try to fly most of my hours on something very much less expensive per-hour!
XA (aka CMcK): I actually flew a few hours at Strathaven a couple of years ago, before I decided I wanted the LAPL. You have a lovely airfield, and I may pop down again and say hi.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Big_J,
Always welcome. Will be good to see you again.
Yes, Strathaven has its issues - ie bumpy runway in parts.
I have had a p.m. from someone who says they have been quoted £300 for an hour in a four-seater in central Scotland.
So you might just want to stick with your yet-to-be bought permit-to-fly two seater and bring family/friends down to your chosen airfield for a picnic and just take them up in turns!
Strangely, we have never lost a day flying due to the state of the grass runway - other than snow. Yes, we have had to restrict circuits on the odd day, but good drainage is an advantage of being at 847ft amsl!
The microlight ban at Prestwick is a legacy of the out-of-date thinking that has plagued this airport, unfortunately. The incident referred to was actually a group visit to the tower at Stansted where the microlighters all got a great view of an El All 747 freighter using a lot of thrust to follow a marshaller's instructions into a bay! Yes, it led to an insurance claim - no surprise there! - but I am sure the airport has seen higher ones!
Of course, if anything happens anywhere in the world, we can make our premises safer by banning people/things/activities rather than educating.
Well, it is cheaper, you don't need to pay for the training. But then you might end up with a business with no customers!!
Always welcome. Will be good to see you again.
Yes, Strathaven has its issues - ie bumpy runway in parts.
I have had a p.m. from someone who says they have been quoted £300 for an hour in a four-seater in central Scotland.
So you might just want to stick with your yet-to-be bought permit-to-fly two seater and bring family/friends down to your chosen airfield for a picnic and just take them up in turns!
Strangely, we have never lost a day flying due to the state of the grass runway - other than snow. Yes, we have had to restrict circuits on the odd day, but good drainage is an advantage of being at 847ft amsl!
The microlight ban at Prestwick is a legacy of the out-of-date thinking that has plagued this airport, unfortunately. The incident referred to was actually a group visit to the tower at Stansted where the microlighters all got a great view of an El All 747 freighter using a lot of thrust to follow a marshaller's instructions into a bay! Yes, it led to an insurance claim - no surprise there! - but I am sure the airport has seen higher ones!
Of course, if anything happens anywhere in the world, we can make our premises safer by banning people/things/activities rather than educating.
Well, it is cheaper, you don't need to pay for the training. But then you might end up with a business with no customers!!
As one of 6 sharing a Jodel DR1050, hangared at Inverness, running on mogas, I payed £600 for fixed charges, and £2928 for 48.8 tach hours flying, in the 12 months ending 31/10/2016. That includes fuel, but not landings. The Group runs at a profit, and has a good engine fund, after fitting a Mode S and an 8.33 radio.
105kts cruise. 4 hours endurance.
105kts cruise. 4 hours endurance.
