How did Spitfire and Hurricane pilots navigate
VDF and QGH approaches were significantly different.
With a VDF approach, the pilot was issued with a series of QDRs which was interpreted (using the appropriate letdown plate) by the pilot to decide his/her position in relation to the airfield.
With a QGH approach (latterly called CDTC - Controlled Descent Through Cloud) the pilot is instructed to fly a series of QDMs and is instructed when to descend by the controller and it is thus classed as a type of Ground Controlled Approach.
With VDF being mainly at civil airports and QGH being mainly military (one exception was Goodwood before it became AFIS), the QGH was often designed to get the aircraft within the scan of the PAR.
Both types of approach require similar equipment ie some sort of direction finder display which automatically provided a bearing whenever the pilot transmitted either on a VHF or UHF frequency.
This was not available during WW2 as far as I'm aware; the only D/F systems being 'homers' whereby an operator on the ground manually turned the receiving aerial (a loop antenna) until he/she received a minimum strength signal. The bearing was then read off a calibration ring and passed to the pilot.
Sometimes the 'homers' were positioned in a pattern of 3 receiving stations so that the exact aircraft position could be plotted fron the 3 bearings, the three for Farnborough being at Cove, Medstead and Twinwoods Farm.
Additionally, some airfields were equipped with SBA or 'Standard Beam Approach' which worked in a similar fashion to ILS but with the pilot judging his position by hearing a series of dots when he was one side of the localiser or dashes when the other side, with a continuous note when he was on centreline rather than having a dial to refer to
With a VDF approach, the pilot was issued with a series of QDRs which was interpreted (using the appropriate letdown plate) by the pilot to decide his/her position in relation to the airfield.
With a QGH approach (latterly called CDTC - Controlled Descent Through Cloud) the pilot is instructed to fly a series of QDMs and is instructed when to descend by the controller and it is thus classed as a type of Ground Controlled Approach.
With VDF being mainly at civil airports and QGH being mainly military (one exception was Goodwood before it became AFIS), the QGH was often designed to get the aircraft within the scan of the PAR.
Both types of approach require similar equipment ie some sort of direction finder display which automatically provided a bearing whenever the pilot transmitted either on a VHF or UHF frequency.
This was not available during WW2 as far as I'm aware; the only D/F systems being 'homers' whereby an operator on the ground manually turned the receiving aerial (a loop antenna) until he/she received a minimum strength signal. The bearing was then read off a calibration ring and passed to the pilot.
Sometimes the 'homers' were positioned in a pattern of 3 receiving stations so that the exact aircraft position could be plotted fron the 3 bearings, the three for Farnborough being at Cove, Medstead and Twinwoods Farm.
Additionally, some airfields were equipped with SBA or 'Standard Beam Approach' which worked in a similar fashion to ILS but with the pilot judging his position by hearing a series of dots when he was one side of the localiser or dashes when the other side, with a continuous note when he was on centreline rather than having a dial to refer to
Last edited by chevvron; 7th Oct 2016 at 11:25.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: PommyLand - but I'll be back!
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did a VDF let-down with Rufus Heald for my initial IMC test at Exeter in 1982. I think he was bored as he also insisted on a Practice Pan just to chat to his mates in D & D.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Petersfield
Age: 66
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At Goodwood c.1980 (tail wheel conversion in the 3PFG Chipmunk) they certainly did QGH (controller-interpreted VDF) let-downs, I suspect just because the ex-RAF ATCO liked doing them. I did hear stories of him controlling several aircraft in VDF holds overhead, while he talked another aircraft down the QGH procedure. I did think at the time it was mostly for amusement value: the South Downs just north of Goodwood are quite high and therefore the DH for a non precision approach was around 1500 ft and in extremis a more rational get-home technique might have been to fly south for five minutes, let down over the sea and then Bradshaw over the low ground back to Goodwood, avoiding the cathedral en route.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Extraordinary to think that anyone needs to ask this question. Does no one read books any more?
There may have been letdowns of a sort for bombers on occasion but never enough of them to get 600 aircraft down. Later they had Gee and such, fighters never did.
Nav was Mk1 eyeball, map, compass and stopwatch, ie MDR, what else? There were no navaids on a Spitfire bar the compass. The term navaid hadn't been even been invented.
If above cloud you flew by compass course until the watch said descend, and you trusted you were over the flat ground you wanted to find. Then you popped out of cloud. If you got it wrong you either frightened yourself badly of became the scene of a future aero-ghoul's dig. Look at the number of wrecks on our hills - CFIT was a major cause of losses throughout the war.
The Met flight at Duxford flew in all weather, down to 50m fog on the deck and got back to Duxford almost every time. It can be done if you have the motivation.
But try reading some books, that's where the real story is.
There may have been letdowns of a sort for bombers on occasion but never enough of them to get 600 aircraft down. Later they had Gee and such, fighters never did.
Nav was Mk1 eyeball, map, compass and stopwatch, ie MDR, what else? There were no navaids on a Spitfire bar the compass. The term navaid hadn't been even been invented.
If above cloud you flew by compass course until the watch said descend, and you trusted you were over the flat ground you wanted to find. Then you popped out of cloud. If you got it wrong you either frightened yourself badly of became the scene of a future aero-ghoul's dig. Look at the number of wrecks on our hills - CFIT was a major cause of losses throughout the war.
The Met flight at Duxford flew in all weather, down to 50m fog on the deck and got back to Duxford almost every time. It can be done if you have the motivation.
But try reading some books, that's where the real story is.
I wonder whether any British pilots ever landed accidentally on the wrong side of the channel as I gather one German pilot did after confusing the Bristol channel with the English channel?
I agree that the OP is asking a question that seems to have so obvious an answer?! Maybe that we were taught much the same basic airmanship in the 60s and used panels containing essentially the same air driven gyros, and maps. Remember them, the paper stuff that preceded GPS & iPads? Look outside, or maintain a good DR plot until a positive ID updates your position.
Even RN flying had us developing a 'fog approach' to get back onto Mother when vis was down to SFA. From the island (Ark) you couldn't see the wires some 300ft away with 15knots creating an increase in the lousy vis: needs must, and all that.
Even RN flying had us developing a 'fog approach' to get back onto Mother when vis was down to SFA. From the island (Ark) you couldn't see the wires some 300ft away with 15knots creating an increase in the lousy vis: needs must, and all that.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: belgium
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I was a kid I got hold of a real WW2 B-17 navigation sheet, it contained all the rendez-vous coordinates, fuel calculations, drop points etc. It surely did feed my enthusiasm for becoming a pilot myself later on as the sheet somewhat resembled the VFR flight log I used during training.
Bomber navigation was surely different from the fighters I guess.
Bomber navigation was surely different from the fighters I guess.
Having looked into this subject in detail, up to just after the Battle of Britain, most single pilot visual navigation was done using ground features. Pilots would tend to be quite "localised" and would develop a clear mental picture of their locale and be able to navigate using known features. Outside the known area, map navigation was done mostly by "map crawling". And this all seemed to work adequately until after the Battle of Britain when the fight became more offensive and it was now possible to take the fight to the enemy. Single seat fighters were now being used on low level offensive attacks in Europe (known as "rhubarbs" due to their very low level nature) and it was rapidly discovered that the navigation techniques used up to this point were not sufficient due to the lack of visual range at low level, particularly in the flat areas of Northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands which had very few features with vertical profile. Pilots were getting lost and aircraft were being lost.
The Air Ministry looked at ways of improving Navigation and part of the plan was to use (later Sir) Francis Chichester, who had considerable navigation success flying to Australia and New Zealand single handed to help develop these techniques. Chichester had been prevented flying on active service due to his eyesight and had already written several articles and books on Navigation, so was glad to help. He later flew with ETPS developing the techniques as a pilot without wings - which often caused consternation.
What they came up with was the "Clock/Map/Ground" technique which allowed accurate navigation while giving most of the available pilot capacity to looking out and flying accurately. The RAF were still using it in the 1980s when I trained and in the 1990s when I was teaching and it still forms the basis of Navigation learned by RAF pilots today.
A lot of this is covered in Chichester's Biography "The Lonely Sky and the Sea" which I thoroughly recommend.
The Air Ministry looked at ways of improving Navigation and part of the plan was to use (later Sir) Francis Chichester, who had considerable navigation success flying to Australia and New Zealand single handed to help develop these techniques. Chichester had been prevented flying on active service due to his eyesight and had already written several articles and books on Navigation, so was glad to help. He later flew with ETPS developing the techniques as a pilot without wings - which often caused consternation.
What they came up with was the "Clock/Map/Ground" technique which allowed accurate navigation while giving most of the available pilot capacity to looking out and flying accurately. The RAF were still using it in the 1980s when I trained and in the 1990s when I was teaching and it still forms the basis of Navigation learned by RAF pilots today.
A lot of this is covered in Chichester's Biography "The Lonely Sky and the Sea" which I thoroughly recommend.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming you can see bits of the ground it's a lot easier to navigate when you are at 10,000'. And as you go higher, it becomes even easier. There was no controlled airspace and no doubt barrage balloons showed you where the biggest cities were. Now assuming pilots were like they are today, they either knew where home was (one village west of the first bridge over the river sort of thing), carried a crib sheet, guessed or landed at the wrong place and got directions... Or just followed their colleagues.
PM
PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northampton
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even in the 80s I used HNS in the 1-11 (human navigation system) You could use the weather radar to find the coast, fly to offset the track, let down over the sea and then turn left or right to find the field. Used it to find Kavala when the NDB was U/S, works well.
I wonder whether any British pilots ever landed accidentally on the wrong side of the channel as I gather one German pilot did after confusing the Bristol channel with the English channel?
The airfields also had lights in line with the runway or landing area called Chance Lights. I saw them at Perth in the 1990s. The pilot lined up with the red lights and descended to land to either side and eh, hoped he and the aircraft survived the arrival. Ending up in the hedge was not uncommon and neither was baling out, when all else had failed.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAF Low Flying Navigation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQWZEVaoFKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQWZEVaoFKQ
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jayemm
The book you refer to may be "No Moon Tonight" by Don Charlwood who was a navigator. I read it several times as a kid too,
Pastoral was excellent, also read many times and although fictional it rang true. I wish they would make a film. It had aircraft, drama and romance. A great combination!
The book you refer to may be "No Moon Tonight" by Don Charlwood who was a navigator. I read it several times as a kid too,
Pastoral was excellent, also read many times and although fictional it rang true. I wish they would make a film. It had aircraft, drama and romance. A great combination!