a newbie query
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a newbie query
Picture the scene if you can. It's summer and the weather is CAVOK and looking that way for the rest of the week(end). You've recently become a qualified pilot and feel full of vim and vigour. It feels like the world is your oyster and all you need now is the drone of a rotax and the fields of this fair isle passing majestically under your wings. Enthused as you are you bound up to your FTO and enquire about maybe the possibility of, that is if you don't mind of course, hiring a plane for an afternoon pottle?
You must be having a turkish!! is their considered reply.
Now, please don't get me wrong, my FTO was outstanding and i would recommend them to anyone. I know that they are in the business of flight training and their instructors are much better utilised in the air rather than sitting around on the ground like lemons. I know that planes are booked in 2 hour slots for lessons rather than fractions of days. I know all this, but still I find it is frustrating that since passing my PPL, the number of hours I am doing has fallen dramatically.
Although this may appear a stoopid
to most here, what other options are open to someone like myself to carry on what has become an unhealthy obsession?
You must be having a turkish!! is their considered reply.
Now, please don't get me wrong, my FTO was outstanding and i would recommend them to anyone. I know that they are in the business of flight training and their instructors are much better utilised in the air rather than sitting around on the ground like lemons. I know that planes are booked in 2 hour slots for lessons rather than fractions of days. I know all this, but still I find it is frustrating that since passing my PPL, the number of hours I am doing has fallen dramatically.
Although this may appear a stoopid
to most here, what other options are open to someone like myself to carry on what has become an unhealthy obsession?
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Can't see any reason why they aren't thrusting the keys in your general direction.
After all, the most useless thing on earth is an aeroplane and if you are flying it, its earning them some money.
The only reasons I can think of for them refusing to let you fly are that all the aircraft are already booked, the weather is not suitable or that you are not current. Try asking them why.
And do you really fly from Fair Isle??
A wonderful place - I really must go back there.
After all, the most useless thing on earth is an aeroplane and if you are flying it, its earning them some money.
The only reasons I can think of for them refusing to let you fly are that all the aircraft are already booked, the weather is not suitable or that you are not current. Try asking them why.
And do you really fly from Fair Isle??
A wonderful place - I really must go back there.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Gus,
First of all, welcome to PPRuNe!
Second, Rotax engines don't drone, they buzz!
As for your question, there are a few possibilities. Book several weeks in advance is the easiest one (I think, judging from what you've said, that the reason you can't hire is because the planes are fully booked up, and not because the school won't hire to pilots unless they're undertaking instruction???) Of course, the disadvantage of that is that you don't know what the weather will be like - so book for every weekend, and fly whenever the weather's good enough!
Or you could do some more training. A taildragger check-out will make you a better pilot, open the door to a whole new bunch of interesting aircraft, and may even let you fly aircraft which are less fully booked on good-weather days. An IMC rating would be nice - but why waste such nice weather by not looking out of the window - leave that one till the winter!
Depending how much money you have in the bank, though, the best solution would be to buy a share in an aircraft. Then, you have far better availability. And, depending on the type, it'll probably be much cheaper per hour to fly, which will encourage you to fly more.
Try to arrange to go to fly-ins (we had a very successful PPRuNe fly-in a month ago, and I'm sure someone will arrange another one some time, but there are fly-ins all over the country regularly), arrange to fly passengers, arrange to fly with other pilots - all things which force you to book the aircraft in advance. Of course, some of the things you book you'll have to cancel because of the weather, but that can't be helped.
Good luck!
FFF
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First of all, welcome to PPRuNe!
Second, Rotax engines don't drone, they buzz!
As for your question, there are a few possibilities. Book several weeks in advance is the easiest one (I think, judging from what you've said, that the reason you can't hire is because the planes are fully booked up, and not because the school won't hire to pilots unless they're undertaking instruction???) Of course, the disadvantage of that is that you don't know what the weather will be like - so book for every weekend, and fly whenever the weather's good enough!
Or you could do some more training. A taildragger check-out will make you a better pilot, open the door to a whole new bunch of interesting aircraft, and may even let you fly aircraft which are less fully booked on good-weather days. An IMC rating would be nice - but why waste such nice weather by not looking out of the window - leave that one till the winter!
Depending how much money you have in the bank, though, the best solution would be to buy a share in an aircraft. Then, you have far better availability. And, depending on the type, it'll probably be much cheaper per hour to fly, which will encourage you to fly more.
Try to arrange to go to fly-ins (we had a very successful PPRuNe fly-in a month ago, and I'm sure someone will arrange another one some time, but there are fly-ins all over the country regularly), arrange to fly passengers, arrange to fly with other pilots - all things which force you to book the aircraft in advance. Of course, some of the things you book you'll have to cancel because of the weather, but that can't be helped.
Good luck!
FFF
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Thanks for the replies chaps.
I think that the problem is that the school is very busy with bookings at the moment. Also, i'd prefer to take a plane for an afternoon, go visit somewhere, have a cuppa, and then return, which means that I'd book the aircraft for half a day and probably only put an hour and a half or so on the tacho. Not very cost efficient to the school in question. Plus with students queuing up for lessons and instructors wanting to doing what instructors do best, I get the feeling that there's more money for them in training rather than hiring.
My instructor mentioned that maybe I should look into group flying, as the availability is much better , and costs can be a lot lower . It would suit me more as I'd like to do some touring round soon to get more experience and confidence.
How much would be reasonable to pay for a share? My only concern is that wouldn't some groups feel a bit nervous about letting a newbie out in their pride and joy?
I think that the problem is that the school is very busy with bookings at the moment. Also, i'd prefer to take a plane for an afternoon, go visit somewhere, have a cuppa, and then return, which means that I'd book the aircraft for half a day and probably only put an hour and a half or so on the tacho. Not very cost efficient to the school in question. Plus with students queuing up for lessons and instructors wanting to doing what instructors do best, I get the feeling that there's more money for them in training rather than hiring.
My instructor mentioned that maybe I should look into group flying, as the availability is much better
, and costs can be a lot lower . It would suit me more as I'd like to do some touring round soon to get more experience and confidence.How much would be reasonable to pay for a share? My only concern is that wouldn't some groups feel a bit nervous about letting a newbie out in their pride and joy?
I think that your instructor is probably right, club hire systems are rarely all that amenable to more than a couple of hours use at a time. For touring, you really need to be in a group or own one outright.
There's no standard benchmark for syndicate costs, best thing is to travel around local airfields looking at noticeaboards, and take note of what's available.
I'd also suggest strongly joining the PFA. Membership will expose you to lots of other people with the same basic interest, and you'll also see lots of cheap shares or interesting aeroplanes for MUCH less money than you would inticipate (I saw a group A single seater for "£3000 or best offer") at the PFA rally. As a newbie group flying is your best starting point, but sole ownership of a permit aeroplane makes reasonable sense and there's a lot to be said for not having to deconflict availability with anybody.
G
There's no standard benchmark for syndicate costs, best thing is to travel around local airfields looking at noticeaboards, and take note of what's available.
I'd also suggest strongly joining the PFA. Membership will expose you to lots of other people with the same basic interest, and you'll also see lots of cheap shares or interesting aeroplanes for MUCH less money than you would inticipate (I saw a group A single seater for "£3000 or best offer") at the PFA rally. As a newbie group flying is your best starting point, but sole ownership of a permit aeroplane makes reasonable sense and there's a lot to be said for not having to deconflict availability with anybody.
G
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Gus
You could try calling Roger Hayes at Skysport, he has a number of Bulldogs and Pups for hire at reasonable rates and also a share in a Pup run as a private group. His number is 020 8866 0562.
If you haven't flown a Pup, they are very nice and the Bulldog is a bigger, beefed up, military trainer version.
Share prices vary considerably depending on the type of aircraft involved and the number of group members.
I I were you, I'd look to pay £2-3K and around £40-60 per hour. This will get you into a C150/Pup type of single which is ideal for building hours and well within your capabilities as a new PPL.
Also, you'll find that this sort of aircraft doesn't concern the insurers too much and therefore you're likely to find that groups will be happy to welcome you, since their insurance cover will not be prejudiced by your shiny new ticket!
Good luck.
F3G
You could try calling Roger Hayes at Skysport, he has a number of Bulldogs and Pups for hire at reasonable rates and also a share in a Pup run as a private group. His number is 020 8866 0562.
If you haven't flown a Pup, they are very nice and the Bulldog is a bigger, beefed up, military trainer version.
Share prices vary considerably depending on the type of aircraft involved and the number of group members.
I I were you, I'd look to pay £2-3K and around £40-60 per hour. This will get you into a C150/Pup type of single which is ideal for building hours and well within your capabilities as a new PPL.
Also, you'll find that this sort of aircraft doesn't concern the insurers too much and therefore you're likely to find that groups will be happy to welcome you, since their insurance cover will not be prejudiced by your shiny new ticket!
Good luck.
F3G
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 27th Jun 2002 at 13:48.
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Might also be worth looking at other schools in the area. I learnt to fly with a flying group, rather than a school. Most of the training happens at weekends, with only one instructor. So during the week there are 4 a/c at our disposal, and at the weekend there are 3. Prices are pretty good too. Good luck!
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Flying during the week increases the chances of getting an a/c for a longer period, especially on a Friday before a wekend with a Bank Holiday on the Monday. (Everyone will be thinking one day out of Sat/Sun/Mon will be okay to fly, so I won't take a day off work 'just' to go flying )
I take every opportunity to work overtime at work (my boss won't PAY over time, but he will let me not be at work sometimes during the week!) So I have had a number of whole days out in club aircraft (better equiped than my own) during the week for just the cost of the hours flown.
Group flying makes a lot of sense from an availability point of view. The group I belong to has an arrangement which I think is just about perfect. There are four of us and we each have the aircraft for a week at a time. Thus we can go away for the day, the weekend or the week, when it is our week. Plus because not everyone can fly every day when it is their week, there is often the opportunity to fly in somebody elses week (with their agreement).
FYI: I paid £3500 for the 1/4 share, and we pay £25/month + £26/hour . So if I fly for two hours a month it costs me £77. I couldn't hire a club C152 for ONE hour for that amount.
)I take every opportunity to work overtime at work (my boss won't PAY over time, but he will let me not be at work sometimes during the week!) So I have had a number of whole days out in club aircraft (better equiped than my own) during the week for just the cost of the hours flown.
Group flying makes a lot of sense from an availability point of view. The group I belong to has an arrangement which I think is just about perfect. There are four of us and we each have the aircraft for a week at a time. Thus we can go away for the day, the weekend or the week, when it is our week. Plus because not everyone can fly every day when it is their week, there is often the opportunity to fly in somebody elses week (with their agreement).
FYI: I paid £3500 for the 1/4 share, and we pay £25/month + £26/hour . So if I fly for two hours a month it costs me £77. I couldn't hire a club C152 for ONE hour for that amount.
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what to fly
If you want best value then see what your local PFA lads are up to. You may have to re-adjust your ideas about what you want from your aircraft and what it looks like, but one sure way of getting plenty of hours in is to go for a group share in something on a Permit to Fly. It will also be fun, and improve your flying..
If its a tailwheel type, make sure you have some instruction with someone who knows his stuff, and apply this to how to operate off strips. The PFA handles this via its Pilot Coaching Scheme
Do it now, you won't be sorry. (well, wait for daylight then ! )
TTH
You will then discover what its like to feel current
If its a tailwheel type, make sure you have some instruction with someone who knows his stuff, and apply this to how to operate off strips. The PFA handles this via its Pilot Coaching Scheme
Do it now, you won't be sorry. (well, wait for daylight then ! )
TTH
You will then discover what its like to feel current
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People talk about 'schools' and 'clubs' as being the same thing, but remember that while a normal school is basically a business selling a service, a good club will be run for the benefit of its memebers with less emphasis on profit. This should be reflected not only in cheaper aircraft hire prices (in general), but also in better availability of aircraft.
As an example, the club where I am currently training owns 13 aircraft of various types, five or six of which are pretty much dedicated training aircraft (Cadets and C152's), the rest, i.e. the majoroty of the 'fleet', being better equipped/larger/more advanced aircraft usually available for hire by members. This makes for better availability (with forward planning - which I admit to not being good at). The hire cost basicaly represents the actual running cost of the aircraft,l including the club overheads. any money left 'in the kitty' is invested and then used to improve facilities, add aircraft etc. as required. I cannot remember being at the club and not seeing at least one Warrior sat idle, even at weekends.
Basically, have a look round and see what is available elsewhere.
As an example, the club where I am currently training owns 13 aircraft of various types, five or six of which are pretty much dedicated training aircraft (Cadets and C152's), the rest, i.e. the majoroty of the 'fleet', being better equipped/larger/more advanced aircraft usually available for hire by members. This makes for better availability (with forward planning - which I admit to not being good at). The hire cost basicaly represents the actual running cost of the aircraft,l including the club overheads. any money left 'in the kitty' is invested and then used to improve facilities, add aircraft etc. as required. I cannot remember being at the club and not seeing at least one Warrior sat idle, even at weekends.
Basically, have a look round and see what is available elsewhere.
Last edited by knobbygb; 28th Jun 2002 at 06:15.
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As a new PPruner and looking to start a PPL, could anyone explain to me what the difference is between a flying school, club and group?
This is probably a dumb question, but I am a little confused
This is probably a dumb question, but I am a little confused
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See knobbygb's explaination of the difference between a school and club.
A group is generally formed around the operation of a single aircraft (but some groups do operate more than one a/c), will generally have less members than a club, and the members often have to make a significant capital investment to join the group. The aim of the group is unlikely to be primary training, so while you can learn to fly in a group aircraft (subject to various caveats), my feeling is that most people looking for training are better off going to a school (or club) geared up for it.
A group is generally formed around the operation of a single aircraft (but some groups do operate more than one a/c), will generally have less members than a club, and the members often have to make a significant capital investment to join the group. The aim of the group is unlikely to be primary training, so while you can learn to fly in a group aircraft (subject to various caveats), my feeling is that most people looking for training are better off going to a school (or club) geared up for it.
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Gus,
Rotax's are for lawnmowers and jetski's and snowmobiles - wake up, smell the coffee and go pootle behind an A65 or similar. get a share in a Champ or a Cub or a Jodel and live a bit
Rotax's are for lawnmowers and jetski's and snowmobiles - wake up, smell the coffee and go pootle behind an A65 or similar. get a share in a Champ or a Cub or a Jodel and live a bit
Javelin, you are years out of date.
I've done 3½hrs behind or in front of two Rotax engines today, one was generating 100hp, burning less than 3gph, and is available fully certified.
The other would, admittedly fit your description adequately, but still propels an aeroplane through the sky adequately, and I've owned it and the attached aeroplane for 5 years without any more problems than you'd get on the normal ludicrously overpriced Lycontintental 50 year old designs.
G
I've done 3½hrs behind or in front of two Rotax engines today, one was generating 100hp, burning less than 3gph, and is available fully certified.
The other would, admittedly fit your description adequately, but still propels an aeroplane through the sky adequately, and I've owned it and the attached aeroplane for 5 years without any more problems than you'd get on the normal ludicrously overpriced Lycontintental 50 year old designs.
G
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I'm with javelin on this one - sorry Genghis! The Rotax on my Europa will generate 115bhp, more than enough to pull the aircraft along at 125kts. But it still sounds more like a lawnmower than an aeroplane. AerBabe thought it sounded more like a milk-float - a very loud milk-float, but it's a pretty good description!
FFF
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FFF
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Gus, I remember you from telly in Cornwall when I was a wee lad!
Six/seven years ago I was in a very similar position, couldn't rent for prolonged periods and when I could, the prospect of paying £75/hr for a 152 did not really appeal.
I joined the PFA and within weeks was a co-owner in an Aeronca. That aeroplane changed my whole life. It was inexpensive, it was always available, it was fun and I could easily afford to take others flying. The tailwheel training was interesting and made me really think about my flying far more than I had since passing my PPL exams several years earlier.
TACPOT's bird and mine are identical and the costs are almost the same, too. There were 3 Aeronca shares going in last month's PF mag. I do all the maintenance so have a far better understanding of how it is put together and what needs a critical eye than any other aeroplane I have flown.
I am passionate about the PFA because it rescued my flying before I ran out of money, it has enabled me to plans build my own biplane and I have made some excellent mates through it.
You can join on-line
www.pfa.org.uk
Stik
Six/seven years ago I was in a very similar position, couldn't rent for prolonged periods and when I could, the prospect of paying £75/hr for a 152 did not really appeal.
I joined the PFA and within weeks was a co-owner in an Aeronca. That aeroplane changed my whole life. It was inexpensive, it was always available, it was fun and I could easily afford to take others flying. The tailwheel training was interesting and made me really think about my flying far more than I had since passing my PPL exams several years earlier.
TACPOT's bird and mine are identical and the costs are almost the same, too. There were 3 Aeronca shares going in last month's PF mag. I do all the maintenance so have a far better understanding of how it is put together and what needs a critical eye than any other aeroplane I have flown.
I am passionate about the PFA because it rescued my flying before I ran out of money, it has enabled me to plans build my own biplane and I have made some excellent mates through it.
You can join on-line
www.pfa.org.uk
Stik