Purchase advice?
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Purchase advice?
I am looking to purchase my first aircraft either a PA28-161 or C172, now im trying to run figures but just can't seem to think im missing something.
What do i need to allow for for running costs and what is the norm to pay.
I have the obvious
purchase price
hangar / pad
oil
fuel
50 hour check (what is the rough cost)
Arc /Annual (again rough cost)
insurance (rough cost on say a £30,000 aircraft)
Am i missing anything else? i want to make sure i have enough in a personal engine fund and what cost per hour do i charge myself.
its a minefield. any advice or help
VFR
What do i need to allow for for running costs and what is the norm to pay.
I have the obvious
purchase price
hangar / pad
oil
fuel
50 hour check (what is the rough cost)
Arc /Annual (again rough cost)
insurance (rough cost on say a £30,000 aircraft)
Am i missing anything else? i want to make sure i have enough in a personal engine fund and what cost per hour do i charge myself.
its a minefield. any advice or help
VFR
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I am looking to purchase my first aircraft either a PA28-161 or C172, now im trying to run figures but just can't seem to think im missing something.
What do i need to allow for for running costs and what is the norm to pay.
I have the obvious
purchase price
hangar / pad
oil
fuel
50 hour check (what is the rough cost)
Arc /Annual (again rough cost)
insurance (rough cost on say a £30,000 aircraft)
Am i missing anything else? i want to make sure i have enough in a personal engine fund and what cost per hour do i charge myself.
its a minefield. any advice or help
VFR
What do i need to allow for for running costs and what is the norm to pay.
I have the obvious
purchase price
hangar / pad
oil
fuel
50 hour check (what is the rough cost)
Arc /Annual (again rough cost)
insurance (rough cost on say a £30,000 aircraft)
Am i missing anything else? i want to make sure i have enough in a personal engine fund and what cost per hour do i charge myself.
its a minefield. any advice or help
VFR
Out of interest, why do you want a PA28 or C172 specifically? And though you're based in Marseille I see you have an IMC and therefore, presumably, a British licence? Did you plan to put it on the French or British register?
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Depending on the results of the pre-purchase survey you may need to factor in some budget for initial maintenance activity (either things that will need doing early on or e.g. before the ARC renewal / as part of the first annual).
Even if nothing comes up I'd suggest allowing for the first few bits of maintenance to potentially be a little more expensive than 'average' (if there is such a thing with aircraft!) as your engineers may find things they consider need dealing with that the previous engineers didn't if that makes sense.
Even if nothing comes up I'd suggest allowing for the first few bits of maintenance to potentially be a little more expensive than 'average' (if there is such a thing with aircraft!) as your engineers may find things they consider need dealing with that the previous engineers didn't if that makes sense.
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What alexbrett said. I would say add £3k to the first annual after your purchase (ballpark figure).
Are you going to be the sole user? If yes, and if it goes on G- reg, the 50h check has to be done after 6 months even if 50 hours not flown.
My personal advice would be to buy an Archer, not a Warrior. True 4-seater, handles roughly in the same way (just slow it down in a busy circuit, you don't have to with a Warrior), goes 10-15kts faster and all that for a similar price both in terms of initial purchase and maintenance. Oh, do I recall correctly that the Warrior's engine has a hollow crankshaft whereas the Archer's one is solid? One more or less place for corrosion I am told - no experience as I fly a Dakota with variable pitch prop so that has to have hollow crankshaft.
Welcome to the minefield
/h88
Are you going to be the sole user? If yes, and if it goes on G- reg, the 50h check has to be done after 6 months even if 50 hours not flown.
My personal advice would be to buy an Archer, not a Warrior. True 4-seater, handles roughly in the same way (just slow it down in a busy circuit, you don't have to with a Warrior), goes 10-15kts faster and all that for a similar price both in terms of initial purchase and maintenance. Oh, do I recall correctly that the Warrior's engine has a hollow crankshaft whereas the Archer's one is solid? One more or less place for corrosion I am told - no experience as I fly a Dakota with variable pitch prop so that has to have hollow crankshaft.
Welcome to the minefield
/h88
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A bit of searching here will turn up some fairly detailed discussions of this in the past, I remember seeing them.
In the mean time, reserves!
Engine: 10 (of your currency) per hour
Brakes and tires 1 per hour
Vacuum pump and alternator 0.5 per hour
Avionics recert and upgrade 2 per hour
Database renewal? 1 per hour
Instrument recert 1 per hour
ELT recert? 1 per hour
Propeller (fixed) inspection/dressing/repair 1 per hour
Battery 1 per hour
So reserves set aside = 18.50 per hour would be wise, in addition to the other direct operating costs.
In the mean time, reserves!
Engine: 10 (of your currency) per hour
Brakes and tires 1 per hour
Vacuum pump and alternator 0.5 per hour
Avionics recert and upgrade 2 per hour
Database renewal? 1 per hour
Instrument recert 1 per hour
ELT recert? 1 per hour
Propeller (fixed) inspection/dressing/repair 1 per hour
Battery 1 per hour
So reserves set aside = 18.50 per hour would be wise, in addition to the other direct operating costs.
Thread Starter
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thanks for the info.
I am going to put it on the British register and looking for a nice 4 seating touring aircraft. the airfield i am planning has free landing fees to based aircraft.
Thanks again
VFR
I am going to put it on the British register and looking for a nice 4 seating touring aircraft. the airfield i am planning has free landing fees to based aircraft.
Thanks again
VFR
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You should budget €1-2K pa for unplanned items. There will always be something unexpected that breaks. If you're luck and don't need that one year, then put it aside as there will be painful years too when a lot breaks!
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In addition, you also have to have the wherewithal to withstand the occasional armageddon cash-call. Whether it be metal in the oil, triggering an engine overhaul, avionics meltdown, corrosion found in the main spar or a random bit of maintenance legislation from EASA, at some point this can and will happen, so you need to be prepared for a major cash call at any time - think £20k.
If you're prepared, it may never happen - if you're not, it's likely to happen tomorrow, and might lead to six months of down-time.
Worth also remembering that, save for the fuel, an aircraft costs more or less the same if it flies, as when it doesn't.
If you're prepared, it may never happen - if you're not, it's likely to happen tomorrow, and might lead to six months of down-time.
Worth also remembering that, save for the fuel, an aircraft costs more or less the same if it flies, as when it doesn't.
Last edited by wsmempson; 28th Apr 2016 at 13:33. Reason: illiteracy
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If a Lycoming in a low usage aircraft it will not make TBO, camshaft will rust and wear plus valves will stick. Factor in new mags at 600hrs as well. The lycoming is a lot of design faults waiting to happen, but it does normally keep running till back on the ground. Note Lycoming do say their engines will only make TBO if run for 40hours a month every month.
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Am i missing anything else?
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Note Lycoming do say their engines will only make TBO if run for 40hours a month every month.
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WARRANTY
NEW AND REBUILT RECIPROCATING AIRCRAFT ENGINES
(1) WARRANTY: Lycoming Engines, a division of Avco Corporation (hereinafter “Lycoming”) warrants each new and rebuilt Lycoming reciprocating engine to be free from defect in material or workmanship under normal use and service for a period of twenty-four (24) months or the recommended engine time (hours) between overhauls (“TBO”) in accordance with the latest edition of Lycoming Service Instruction 1009, whichever occurs first. Lycoming’s sole obligation under this warranty is limited to replacement or repair of parts which are determined by Lycoming to have been defective within the warranty period. The warranty period commences on: (a) the date of first operation after new aircraft delivery to the original retail purchaser or first user; or (b) twenty-four (24) months from the engine ship date from Lycoming, whichever occurs first.
(2) HIGHLY UTILIZED ENGINES / LYCOMING LOYALTY PROGRAM WARRANTY: Additionally, Lycoming also warrants the crankcase, crankshaft, cylinders*, sump, accessory housing and all internally lubricated parts to be free from defects in material or workmanship under normal use and service for an additional twelve (12) month period from the warranty period applicable in (1) above on highly utilized engines that consistently accumulate forty (40) or more flight hours per month. This additional twelve (12) month warranty period is limited to new or rebuilt engines purchased on an exchange basis in accordance with a Lycoming Loyalty program through an Authorized Lycoming distributor.
NEW AND REBUILT RECIPROCATING AIRCRAFT ENGINES
(1) WARRANTY: Lycoming Engines, a division of Avco Corporation (hereinafter “Lycoming”) warrants each new and rebuilt Lycoming reciprocating engine to be free from defect in material or workmanship under normal use and service for a period of twenty-four (24) months or the recommended engine time (hours) between overhauls (“TBO”) in accordance with the latest edition of Lycoming Service Instruction 1009, whichever occurs first. Lycoming’s sole obligation under this warranty is limited to replacement or repair of parts which are determined by Lycoming to have been defective within the warranty period. The warranty period commences on: (a) the date of first operation after new aircraft delivery to the original retail purchaser or first user; or (b) twenty-four (24) months from the engine ship date from Lycoming, whichever occurs first.
(2) HIGHLY UTILIZED ENGINES / LYCOMING LOYALTY PROGRAM WARRANTY: Additionally, Lycoming also warrants the crankcase, crankshaft, cylinders*, sump, accessory housing and all internally lubricated parts to be free from defects in material or workmanship under normal use and service for an additional twelve (12) month period from the warranty period applicable in (1) above on highly utilized engines that consistently accumulate forty (40) or more flight hours per month. This additional twelve (12) month warranty period is limited to new or rebuilt engines purchased on an exchange basis in accordance with a Lycoming Loyalty program through an Authorized Lycoming distributor.
Last edited by mrmum; 29th Apr 2016 at 19:53. Reason: Spelling
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Nowt wrong with Lycoming engines, they are very reliable. Indeed they are about as reliable as piston engins can get.
If you want a statistically more reliable engine you are going to need to step up to a PT6.
Any modern engine should easily make it to or beyond TBO if properly cared for but thy are all more likely to fail if abused.
If you want a statistically more reliable engine you are going to need to step up to a PT6.
Any modern engine should easily make it to or beyond TBO if properly cared for but thy are all more likely to fail if abused.
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The Ancient Greek. The idea of placing the camshaft at the top of the engine is OK in a high usage engine but if left a couple of days all the oil drains and it starts to rust then high wear occurs on the cam lobe, valve lift goes down and the climb goes down and the take off run increases happens very frequently. Next problem is the valve gear design from 1929 Cadillac side valve engines which are splash oiled from the crankcase.
To little oil makes it to the over head valves to cool them and it cooks on the valve stem causing it to stick either open or closed. They have problems with the wrist pin in the pistons which use an aluminium bronze plug in each side of the pin to centre it when they wear and role over scratches the bores, first indication is ali/bronze in the oil.
Centre bearing on the crankshaft can spin. Cooling of cylinder heads can be a problem Lycoming max tem is far to high at 475f should be 380f for long life. At their tem limit in time the oil control ring will anneal the spring tension will go and it will rollover and break with huge increase in oil consumption and detonation in that cylinder.
I have seen these problems many times and paid the bills the Lycoming is a piece of junk as far as I am concerned. take care.
To little oil makes it to the over head valves to cool them and it cooks on the valve stem causing it to stick either open or closed. They have problems with the wrist pin in the pistons which use an aluminium bronze plug in each side of the pin to centre it when they wear and role over scratches the bores, first indication is ali/bronze in the oil.
Centre bearing on the crankshaft can spin. Cooling of cylinder heads can be a problem Lycoming max tem is far to high at 475f should be 380f for long life. At their tem limit in time the oil control ring will anneal the spring tension will go and it will rollover and break with huge increase in oil consumption and detonation in that cylinder.
I have seen these problems many times and paid the bills the Lycoming is a piece of junk as far as I am concerned. take care.
After reading that, I'm so glad I have a Continental.Horizon Flyer is quite right. I've seen more than one purchaser of a Lycoming-engined aircraft end up seriously out of pocket after buying a 'bargain' that's been stood for a while, or used infrequently. Caveat emptor, as they say, when they can't spell Buyer Beware.
Last edited by Flyingmac; 1st May 2016 at 18:21.
I find it amusing that an engine that attracts the vitriol above is often described elsewhere as the best light aircraft engine ever produced. Nothing is perfect, and although I lean to the latter point of view when thinking of the O-320 Lycoming, they certainly do have occasional problems. So far my own O-320 is doing well. It's been flown about 1000 hrs total since 1971, never overhauled, makes no metal, uses little oil, all cylinders between 76 and 78/80. I think it's quite a practical engine and was absolutely the right choice for the lightest four seat Cessna and Pipers. Fairly easy to work on too, when required.
I have a four cylinder Continental too, and although it's fine the details of construction make it a bit less practical than the Lycoming.
I have a four cylinder Continental too, and although it's fine the details of construction make it a bit less practical than the Lycoming.
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The answer is simple.
If you leave the aircraft parked outside for a year in our typical english weather, even worse if it is close to the sea, expect some expensive engine work plus possible airframe corrosion and almost certainly mouldy upholstery.
OTOH if you keep in in a hangar and run the engines up to temperature maybe once a month it will repay you with low maintenance and a high resale value.
As with any mechanical contraption, look after it proprly and it will look after you.
Neglect it at your peril.
If you leave the aircraft parked outside for a year in our typical english weather, even worse if it is close to the sea, expect some expensive engine work plus possible airframe corrosion and almost certainly mouldy upholstery.
OTOH if you keep in in a hangar and run the engines up to temperature maybe once a month it will repay you with low maintenance and a high resale value.
As with any mechanical contraption, look after it proprly and it will look after you.
Neglect it at your peril.
