Notams / TRAs for Obama's Visit
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve6443 and what's the response from DFS?
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve6443 and what's the response from DFS?
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
My contact indicated that they had tried to lessen the impact of the TRA and negotiate with the Secret Service because the initial NOTAM would close down (e.g.) Hildesheim, Salzgitter airfields without a valid reason for a full weekend but the Secret Service refused to even consider it. The only reason the NOTAM was changed to start Sunday and end Monday is because Obama's plans changed.
Irrespective of whether Obama knows the impact he has or not, the attitude of his staff reflects extremely poorly on him and for this reason alone, he disgusts me.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve, blaming an American president for reasonable precautions when visiting countries where people like you have peculiar attitudes that might be threatening only makes me wonder what your personal agenda can be. Which politician does NOT disgust you?
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since when can my desire to go about MY business be considered as a 'threatening' attitude? At the same time, let me ask you to explain why closing down airspace 25 miles from where the President is staying can be considered 'reasonable'? If this is NOT reasonable in UK, it's not reasonable in Germany - both countries are, on the whole, civilised, law abiding countries.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve,
Assuming your government and DFS understand the implications of such an airspace restriction, then they obviously believe that the benefits of the visit outweigh the issues brought about by the restrictions.
So I still suggest that your irritation should be directed towards your government and DFS.
Assuming your government and DFS understand the implications of such an airspace restriction, then they obviously believe that the benefits of the visit outweigh the issues brought about by the restrictions.
So I still suggest that your irritation should be directed towards your government and DFS.
Last edited by Gonzo; 22nd Apr 2016 at 20:08.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve,
Assuming your government and DFS understand the implications of such an airspace restriction, then they obviously believe that the benefits of the visit outweigh the issues brought about by the restrictions.
So I still suggest that your irritation should be directed towards your gorpvernment and DFS.
Assuming your government and DFS understand the implications of such an airspace restriction, then they obviously believe that the benefits of the visit outweigh the issues brought about by the restrictions.
So I still suggest that your irritation should be directed towards your gorpvernment and DFS.
It would be like having a 3 lane motorway closed in both directions because a car had had a puncture and the Police decided, in order to prevent each and every eventuality, that all traffic past the spot was to be stopped until the tyre had been replaced.
Yes, maybe we require a chancellor with more balls to stand up to the Secret Service like Tony did but you can hardly claim that the German government voluntarily said 'Hey, Obama is coming to town, to make him feel really happy, we'll shut down numerous airfields within a 30 nautical mile radius of his location....'
Does anyone seriously think the governments of any of the three countries (UK, USA, Germany) seriously weigh up benefit and risk? They make a decision and couldn't give a monkey's uncle about the social or economical cost to individuals or small companies. Any of us who remember the GA situation with the London olympics realise that 'security' over rides the citizen. I do feel sympathy for the security services who will get it in the neck if the other side ever succeed, but an objective risk:benefit assessment would never support many of the restrictions the states have imposed on their citizens this millennium. Let us just be grateful we dont live in other countries where corruption and the lack / failure of democracy means there is even less opportunity for the common man to put his so called servant to the onus of justification.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: where should i be today????
Age: 57
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve6443 and what's the response from DFS?
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
Or is it 'ok'?
Not getting at anyone, but usually those responsible from the US are happy to talk about their requirements and how we can all make sure those requirements are fulfilled while causing the least possible disruption. Not sure why it would be different in Germany. I've always found them pretty understanding once the impact of their initial request has been explained.
Not that I've been involved this time.
Sorry, these words dont rebut the issue: another state has 'requirement's on our sovereign soil / airspace. We comply 'while causing the least possible disruption'.
Are the requirements proven to be necessary? Are their needs greater than the disruption to others? Are they justified?
Are the requirements proven to be necessary? Are their needs greater than the disruption to others? Are they justified?
Well as a poster above was unkind enough to remind me !!
(I feel the pain now)
We couldn't fly for approx. 6 Summer weeks during the bun fight fest that our Gov. had for the Olympics.
As it happened our own CAA were for some months prior going to be accommodating and viewed favourably proposals for small airfields far away from any event to have exit corridors .....
Then our own dear Government sent in the heavy brigade (Special Branch) and the hitherto all powerful CAA were simply pushed aside.
BTW. We too have forbidden G.A. areas this week-end for the US President's visit, but frankly that's small beer. Personally I'm much more incensed that he's abused our own Sovereign's hospitality & her stance of neutrality by threateningly lecturing Britain if we dare to reject a complete Eu take-over of our own Democracy.
mike hallam
(I feel the pain now)
We couldn't fly for approx. 6 Summer weeks during the bun fight fest that our Gov. had for the Olympics.
As it happened our own CAA were for some months prior going to be accommodating and viewed favourably proposals for small airfields far away from any event to have exit corridors .....
Then our own dear Government sent in the heavy brigade (Special Branch) and the hitherto all powerful CAA were simply pushed aside.
BTW. We too have forbidden G.A. areas this week-end for the US President's visit, but frankly that's small beer. Personally I'm much more incensed that he's abused our own Sovereign's hospitality & her stance of neutrality by threateningly lecturing Britain if we dare to reject a complete Eu take-over of our own Democracy.
mike hallam
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
30NM Presidential TFR's are standard in the U.S. and there is little consideration to the impact on non-CAT operations whilst in effect. I've experienced a number of them as well as similar for the VP (a smaller radius restriction if I recall). It would seem the perceived threat is as high at home as it is abroad. I would've imagined going for a drive with Prince Philip in the Range Rover would have warranted a safety risk-assessment based on the credentials of Obama's usual drivers
Steve 6443
I identify completely with your strictures. Don't forget, we're not dealing with any form of rationality. We're dealing with Presidential aura's. The mystique of Presidency, the same kind of nonsensical big balls display that makes Oily Dave jump into his limo flanked by police outriders for a shortish hop down Whitehall.
The same degree of selfish ostentation that makes Harry, upon leaving Twickenham, occupy the outside lane of the motorway to the ire and discomoding of Mr. Average Motorist whose tax pounds are paying for the building and maintenance of the motorway in the first place.
As for the Olympics ! Thanks to all that adverse publicity, no wonder GA is shrinking.
I identify completely with your strictures. Don't forget, we're not dealing with any form of rationality. We're dealing with Presidential aura's. The mystique of Presidency, the same kind of nonsensical big balls display that makes Oily Dave jump into his limo flanked by police outriders for a shortish hop down Whitehall.
The same degree of selfish ostentation that makes Harry, upon leaving Twickenham, occupy the outside lane of the motorway to the ire and discomoding of Mr. Average Motorist whose tax pounds are paying for the building and maintenance of the motorway in the first place.
As for the Olympics ! Thanks to all that adverse publicity, no wonder GA is shrinking.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: london
Age: 60
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well. I think this probably says more about local governments than it does about US Secret Service requirements. When an TFR is issued for presidential flights in the USA they are fairly straightforward and not generally too much of an issue. The ones I have operated around have an inner core with a requirement for any aircraft operating within it to be ( in short) an air carrier and an outer ring that forbids training flights and crop spraying etc but allows ifr flights and some vfr ones, with a squawk/under atc. Not particularly arduous.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RISK ASSESSMENT NEEDED
Perhaps if these folk are so much at risk that they require such a level of protection they should not travel outside their own jurisdiction.
MJG
MJG