Low flying Vs aeromodellers
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I am shocked and saddened by the antipathy shown by some posters here to other legitimate users of airspace. I am gladdened and heartened, though, by the much more positive attitude shown by some more 'enlightened' folk.
There are many more sites where model flying takes place than piloted craft, some of which pre-date heavier-than-air flight. There's a picture in the RAF museum of a very young Sidney Camm with a model aircraft on Epsom Downs. (If you don't know who he was, shame on you!)
There are many more model fliers in the UK than full-size aircraft pilots. The British Model Flying Association has at least 50,000 members and there are probably at least as many people again flying models who do not belong to any group. The total of PPLs, gliderists, balloonists etc is probably less than 25,000.
Perhaps it is about time that recognised model flying sites were marked on the 1/2 mil chart so that WE CAN AVOID THEM. I certainly know where the local model sites are and take pains not to over-fly them, just like I do for gliding sites or para-drop zones.
In reality, in response to the OP's question, I'm with the last sentence. Get them on-side, lay on model flying evenings at the airfield, get them involved with your Club.
Lastly, though the 'traditional' style of fixed or rotary-wing radio controlled model aircraft are strictly 'drones' I think we need to have a differentiation between these models and the newer style of machine with multi-rotors designed to carry a camera as a payload. The trouble is, the edges all get blurred as you can put an HD-quality camera in/on practically any model now.
TOO
There are many more sites where model flying takes place than piloted craft, some of which pre-date heavier-than-air flight. There's a picture in the RAF museum of a very young Sidney Camm with a model aircraft on Epsom Downs. (If you don't know who he was, shame on you!)
There are many more model fliers in the UK than full-size aircraft pilots. The British Model Flying Association has at least 50,000 members and there are probably at least as many people again flying models who do not belong to any group. The total of PPLs, gliderists, balloonists etc is probably less than 25,000.
Perhaps it is about time that recognised model flying sites were marked on the 1/2 mil chart so that WE CAN AVOID THEM. I certainly know where the local model sites are and take pains not to over-fly them, just like I do for gliding sites or para-drop zones.
In reality, in response to the OP's question, I'm with the last sentence. Get them on-side, lay on model flying evenings at the airfield, get them involved with your Club.
Lastly, though the 'traditional' style of fixed or rotary-wing radio controlled model aircraft are strictly 'drones' I think we need to have a differentiation between these models and the newer style of machine with multi-rotors designed to carry a camera as a payload. The trouble is, the edges all get blurred as you can put an HD-quality camera in/on practically any model now.
TOO
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I am shocked and saddened by the antipathy shown by some posters here to other legitimate users of airspace.
(If you don't know who he was, shame on you!)
Perhaps it is about time that recognised model flying sites were marked on the 1/2 mil chart so that WE CAN AVOID THEM. I certainly know where the local model sites are and take pains not to over-fly them
As for all the lets make them our friends, fly them around at great expense go to tea with them, yadda,yadda, I pick my own friends thanks.
I do own a tin hat....
Last edited by PA28181; 29th Jan 2016 at 13:28. Reason: So the spelling police don't get upset
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Best approach would be to respond stating that the disused airfield has been used as common practice by local flying schools for PFLs for x number of years.
Ask if they are flying as part of a model flying club and, if yes, request a copy of their rules etc.
Point out that had they informed local airfields of the change of use of the land to model flying then this would have been the best approach for everyone concerned.
It may well be that this is a single person with a couple of pals who just thought that they would use the field - try to establish if they have permission from the landowner.
If they do have videos of models flying close to cloud at heights of 2000 feet I would suggest that this would be in violation of the rule that all models/drones must be flown within line of sight of the operator unless the operator holds a commercial licence to fly on the video system/or has CAA permission to do so. Even when I was in my youth I have extreme doubt that I would have been able to see a model flying at 2000 feet AGL
I would have thought that any responsible model club would have checked that the airfield was not used for any aviation related purposes including PFLs prior to commencing flying and would have had the sense to inform all local flying clubs.
Jusy my two pence worth as we had a similar situation close to our gliding field and an amicable arrangement was arrived at after some discussion. In this situation however the model field was on a local farmers land and was within what could be considered the Traffic zone albeit of an unlicensed gliding field.
They do operate a 400 foot rule and hold competitions at regular intervals. If there is any need for greater heights they do inform us as they also do of any competions that are planned. It works because both sides are willing to accept a little compromise in the much bigger name of SAFETY of both parties.
Ask if they are flying as part of a model flying club and, if yes, request a copy of their rules etc.
Point out that had they informed local airfields of the change of use of the land to model flying then this would have been the best approach for everyone concerned.
It may well be that this is a single person with a couple of pals who just thought that they would use the field - try to establish if they have permission from the landowner.
If they do have videos of models flying close to cloud at heights of 2000 feet I would suggest that this would be in violation of the rule that all models/drones must be flown within line of sight of the operator unless the operator holds a commercial licence to fly on the video system/or has CAA permission to do so. Even when I was in my youth I have extreme doubt that I would have been able to see a model flying at 2000 feet AGL
I would have thought that any responsible model club would have checked that the airfield was not used for any aviation related purposes including PFLs prior to commencing flying and would have had the sense to inform all local flying clubs.
Jusy my two pence worth as we had a similar situation close to our gliding field and an amicable arrangement was arrived at after some discussion. In this situation however the model field was on a local farmers land and was within what could be considered the Traffic zone albeit of an unlicensed gliding field.
They do operate a 400 foot rule and hold competitions at regular intervals. If there is any need for greater heights they do inform us as they also do of any competions that are planned. It works because both sides are willing to accept a little compromise in the much bigger name of SAFETY of both parties.
Join Date: Jan 2009
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forgive me if I have recounted this incident before....
When towing up a twoseater glider with a 150 hp supercub at Shenington, when the wind is on the ridge, I normally took advantage of the lift along the ridge, to improve the performance of the combination.
One such day, noticed a glider soaring the ridge toward me, nothing unusual about that. Except it wasn't a real glider at a safe distance, it was a model glider, too close for comfort! I smartly made a sharp left turn away from the conflict, to the surprise of the glider pilot on tow, who hadn't seen the model, but she hung on OK, and we continued on our way unscathed. Of course we saw the funny side of it later, I can just picture the angished concern of the model driver down there on the hill, not knowing what to do or which way to turn....
We used to get on with the model flyers just fine, but the farmer got fed up because their vehicles used to churn up his field, so he locked the gate, and we don't see them these days.
When towing up a twoseater glider with a 150 hp supercub at Shenington, when the wind is on the ridge, I normally took advantage of the lift along the ridge, to improve the performance of the combination.
One such day, noticed a glider soaring the ridge toward me, nothing unusual about that. Except it wasn't a real glider at a safe distance, it was a model glider, too close for comfort! I smartly made a sharp left turn away from the conflict, to the surprise of the glider pilot on tow, who hadn't seen the model, but she hung on OK, and we continued on our way unscathed. Of course we saw the funny side of it later, I can just picture the angished concern of the model driver down there on the hill, not knowing what to do or which way to turn....
We used to get on with the model flyers just fine, but the farmer got fed up because their vehicles used to churn up his field, so he locked the gate, and we don't see them these days.
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I flew over to my sister's gaff a few years ago in the Chippy to take a few photos. Its a large house in its own grounds so makes a good photo subject from a few hundred feet. As I dived in over the adjacent village I noted a big stationary black object at my height on my left. I jinked left for a look and circled what turned out to be a kite!
I could look down its string to the startled eyes of the owner standing in a field!
A few years before near Barton on a very gusty day with 'Rooftop' (RIP - anyone remember Rooftop?) in the back seat and something over to our right, about 3 miles away, flashed in the sun. I wheeled the Chippy round and we went over for a look. It was a black bin bag at 1,500' rolling end over end and reflecting the sun!
There's all sorts of unexpected stuff up there!
I could look down its string to the startled eyes of the owner standing in a field!
A few years before near Barton on a very gusty day with 'Rooftop' (RIP - anyone remember Rooftop?) in the back seat and something over to our right, about 3 miles away, flashed in the sun. I wheeled the Chippy round and we went over for a look. It was a black bin bag at 1,500' rolling end over end and reflecting the sun!
There's all sorts of unexpected stuff up there!
Join Date: May 2009
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I remember once I was flying a model glider on the ridge at Shennington when this wheezy old cub appeared dragging a ballasted single seater coming straight for my model.... hello mary!
cant be that hard to share air. I remember landing a small jet at an airfield in northern France where parachuting was taking place on one bit, model flying with turbine models and all manner of large IC model was taking place on another bit, and I was landing a citation in the middle. Good use of space, lots of fun, stop trying to "own" the sky!
cant be that hard to share air. I remember landing a small jet at an airfield in northern France where parachuting was taking place on one bit, model flying with turbine models and all manner of large IC model was taking place on another bit, and I was landing a citation in the middle. Good use of space, lots of fun, stop trying to "own" the sky!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Glen
I agree with you where there is a responsible modelling club and something solid to talk to where operating principals can be agreed
sadly there are irresponsible individuals who do not just fly model aircraft but the craze in drones and cameras.
A while back there was a craze on lasers and some were pointing these at aircraft including myself on an approach
Especially with the latest craze they are flown by people some with bad intent some with zero knowledge an they are the threat not the well organised modelling clubs
Pace
I agree with you where there is a responsible modelling club and something solid to talk to where operating principals can be agreed
sadly there are irresponsible individuals who do not just fly model aircraft but the craze in drones and cameras.
A while back there was a craze on lasers and some were pointing these at aircraft including myself on an approach
Especially with the latest craze they are flown by people some with bad intent some with zero knowledge an they are the threat not the well organised modelling clubs
Pace
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As you mention they have their own website, so I presume they are a fairly big club and are affiliated to the BMFA.
Worth looking on the BMFA website to see if they are listed. Whether or not they are affiliated, I'd get your instructor to download the BMFA members handbook and reply to their email in a pleasant manner quoting the various paragraphs in the handbook referring to the ANO. Specifically:
"A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft"
I presume this incident occurred in Class G airspace. If so I would go on to explain that neither party were doing anything wrong and mention the difficulties of spotting a model aircraft when piloting a full size aircraft and respectfully suggest the onus is on the model aircraft pilot to spot and avoid full size aircraft to comply with the above ANO rule and leave it at that.
I wouldn't want to take it any further than that.......like I said neither party were doing anything wrong, a PFL down to 500' agl is perfectly legal........he did go around at 500' agl didn't he?...I only mention that because any PFL an instructor has ever demonstrated to be has ended slightly below 500' agl!
Worth looking on the BMFA website to see if they are listed. Whether or not they are affiliated, I'd get your instructor to download the BMFA members handbook and reply to their email in a pleasant manner quoting the various paragraphs in the handbook referring to the ANO. Specifically:
"A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft"
I presume this incident occurred in Class G airspace. If so I would go on to explain that neither party were doing anything wrong and mention the difficulties of spotting a model aircraft when piloting a full size aircraft and respectfully suggest the onus is on the model aircraft pilot to spot and avoid full size aircraft to comply with the above ANO rule and leave it at that.
I wouldn't want to take it any further than that.......like I said neither party were doing anything wrong, a PFL down to 500' agl is perfectly legal........he did go around at 500' agl didn't he?...I only mention that because any PFL an instructor has ever demonstrated to be has ended slightly below 500' agl!
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a PFL down to 500' agl is perfectly legal........he did go around at 500' agl didn't he?.
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A PFL down to 1' is perfectly legal in the UK as long as the aircraft does not get closer than 500' to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
I realise your hyperbole is to illustrate the point, but if you did carry out a perfectly legal PFL in most of the UK down to 1' you would likely be guilty of "recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft or any person in an aircraft".
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if you did carry out a perfectly legal PFL in most of the UK down to 1' you would likely be guilty of "recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft or any person in an aircraft"
I'd expect to be able to safely land if I had to. After all the engine might not pick up when you wanted to climb away. A PFL shouldn't be dangerous. In the early days of flying microlights it was common practice to actually land off a pfl and then take off again (sadly no longer allowed as its necessary to have the landowners permission).
I would further add that if you've only ever done a PFL down to 500' agl, then you've never done a PFL. The final 500' can be most instructive. I suggest you ask an instructor to show you.
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Really? Why?
I would further add that if you've only ever done a PFL down to 500' agl, then you've never done a PFL. The final 500' can be most instructive. I suggest you ask an instructor to show you.
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"I would further add that if you've only ever done a PFL down to 500' agl, then you've never done a PFL. The final 500' can be most instructive. I suggest you ask an instructor to show you"
Agreed that last 500 feet is where all the expedited slipping and configuration changes happen and more importantly will decide if your airmanship and judgement was up to snuff that day.
Agreed that last 500 feet is where all the expedited slipping and configuration changes happen and more importantly will decide if your airmanship and judgement was up to snuff that day.
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I'd expect to be able to safely land if I had to. After all the engine might not pick up when you wanted to climb away. A PFL shouldn't be dangerous. In the early days of flying microlights it was common practice to actually land off a pfl and then take off again (sadly no longer allowed as its necessary to have the landowners permission).
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Lots of talk about "not above 400 feet".
So just how, standing on the ground, transmitter in hand, looking up at your model, can you assess it's altitude? All very well to say "not above 400 feet", but there is NO WAY to measure this. I challenge anyone to accurately assess the altitude of any aeroplane, full sized or model, simply by looking at it. I know I can't...even RAF runway controllers in their caravans couldn't get it right..and it was their JOB! FPV types with data downlink can have on screen altitude display, but Joe Average with his club Wot-4 just has his eyeballs. Usually the RC types prefer to stay low and close to themselves in any event.
So just how, standing on the ground, transmitter in hand, looking up at your model, can you assess it's altitude? All very well to say "not above 400 feet", but there is NO WAY to measure this. I challenge anyone to accurately assess the altitude of any aeroplane, full sized or model, simply by looking at it. I know I can't...even RAF runway controllers in their caravans couldn't get it right..and it was their JOB! FPV types with data downlink can have on screen altitude display, but Joe Average with his club Wot-4 just has his eyeballs. Usually the RC types prefer to stay low and close to themselves in any event.