The Economics of Ownership
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rob
you are quite right most groups would not let you take the aircraft away for too long afterall you have to let the other group members fly the thing.
As for rental aircraft the way that I keep the cost per hour down is to keep the flying hours high and so spread the fixed costs (hangarage ,insurance,annual maintenance) over as meny flying hours as possable.
The fact is that one of the reasons that flying in northern europe is expencive is that we dont do enough flying.
As for rental aircraft the way that I keep the cost per hour down is to keep the flying hours high and so spread the fixed costs (hangarage ,insurance,annual maintenance) over as meny flying hours as possable.
The fact is that one of the reasons that flying in northern europe is expencive is that we dont do enough flying.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North Weald, UK
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And the reason we don't do enough flying is...because its so expensive.
OK, the weather has a lot to do with it, but when its CAVOK, most of us would like to fly for twice as long as we can afford.
Its a vicious circle.
OK, the weather has a lot to do with it, but when its CAVOK, most of us would like to fly for twice as long as we can afford.
Its a vicious circle.
One of the major costs is maintenance, would it be cheaper if private cat light aircraft were maintained under the PFA scheme or similar? We always hear about public safety but how much of a risk are light aeroplanes to the general public? In the 30 years up to 1999 (UK only) two members of the public were killed in off airfield accidents when a light aircraft hit a boat. In effect the risk from all causes has been negligable. Surely an attempt could be made to reduce the maintenance burden without increasing the risk to the public.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why so expensive?
A lot is to do with CAA approval for parts, many years ago a friend of mine had a Pup150, brake pads cost £60. These were EXACTLY the same pads as fitted to a Jaguar car, even down to the box and part no. only difference the CAA stamp and the price - £6 (as I said, many years ago). with parts costing x 10 what they should do it is no wonder maintainance is so expensive!
A lot is to do with CAA approval for parts, many years ago a friend of mine had a Pup150, brake pads cost £60. These were EXACTLY the same pads as fitted to a Jaguar car, even down to the box and part no. only difference the CAA stamp and the price - £6 (as I said, many years ago). with parts costing x 10 what they should do it is no wonder maintainance is so expensive!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Midlands
Age: 71
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Operating a Robin
I operate a year old Robin and shudder to think what my 200 hours a year costs me. However, I would shudder even more at the thought of anybody else flying it on a hire basis.
Whilst several people fly it, it invariably costs them nothing or just the fuel.
200 hours later, the aircraft is still in brand new condition. Not a single scratch on the perspex etc.
Operating an aircraft exclusively does indeed carry with it an expensicve feelgood factor.
However, I know that in 4 years time, based on the prices of Robins over the past 30 years, I am very likely to get what I paid for it. So, whilst depreciating now, the curve is already starting to level off.
Additionaly, the maintenance costs of a new aircraft are not only low, you can invariably obtain firm quotations for the work. THe first year or more is covered under warranty anyway so no nasty surprises there either.
Owning a brand new Robin Regent is tremendous. I know that when I take the covers off I will see what I did when I put it to bed. That is worth money too.
No pockets in a shroud - some staggeringly good finance deals around - I have a baloon payment at the end and manageable payments now. I can easily refinance in 4 years if I want.
Now, operating my 3 old planes is another story entirely. Sense of humour definately required!
Whilst several people fly it, it invariably costs them nothing or just the fuel.
200 hours later, the aircraft is still in brand new condition. Not a single scratch on the perspex etc.
Operating an aircraft exclusively does indeed carry with it an expensicve feelgood factor.
However, I know that in 4 years time, based on the prices of Robins over the past 30 years, I am very likely to get what I paid for it. So, whilst depreciating now, the curve is already starting to level off.
Additionaly, the maintenance costs of a new aircraft are not only low, you can invariably obtain firm quotations for the work. THe first year or more is covered under warranty anyway so no nasty surprises there either.
Owning a brand new Robin Regent is tremendous. I know that when I take the covers off I will see what I did when I put it to bed. That is worth money too.
No pockets in a shroud - some staggeringly good finance deals around - I have a baloon payment at the end and manageable payments now. I can easily refinance in 4 years if I want.
Now, operating my 3 old planes is another story entirely. Sense of humour definately required!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
food for thought
Another avenue is to import yourself an N-Reg. Because they are on the N-reg, they are not subject to the same maintenance requirements and inspections as a G-reg. For example, the CoA of an N reg aircraft is valid indefinitely; there are no 50 / 100 hr checks due unless it is going to be used for flight tuition.
Annual inspections can be carried out in this country, and I know of at least 1 organisation which can undertake FAA maintenance, and can also keep your aircraft on the N register for around £300 / year. Under the FAA regs you can carry out more basic maintenance yourself, and IFR requirements are easier and cheaper....
Oh and if you buy the aircraft yourself in the US, you'll get a better deal on it, and if you're prepared to fly it back yourself, you'll have an excellent trip.
Of course you have to fly it on an FAA licence, but this is not really a problem.
Rgds
EA
Annual inspections can be carried out in this country, and I know of at least 1 organisation which can undertake FAA maintenance, and can also keep your aircraft on the N register for around £300 / year. Under the FAA regs you can carry out more basic maintenance yourself, and IFR requirements are easier and cheaper....
Oh and if you buy the aircraft yourself in the US, you'll get a better deal on it, and if you're prepared to fly it back yourself, you'll have an excellent trip.
Of course you have to fly it on an FAA licence, but this is not really a problem.
Rgds
EA
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the whole the mantenance costs of an american registered aircraft are the same in the UK as with a british one.
The FAA expect you to maintain the aircraft to the makers maintenance schedule and so dependant on type 50 or 100 hour checks are required ,the price of parts is no diferent if you are buying from a reputable sorce and these parts will have a FAA form 8130-3 with them you can of course fit "yellow tagged" parts but the sorce of these is not allways the most reputable (but its only your life that hangs on them).
The CAA Cof A renewal costs are about the same as the cost of running an american trust company so this offers no real money saving.
The place that the american register will save you a lot of money is if you want to do an IR and I suspect that it is the JAA licence requirments that are driving most people to paint "N" on the side of there aircraft.
The FAA expect you to maintain the aircraft to the makers maintenance schedule and so dependant on type 50 or 100 hour checks are required ,the price of parts is no diferent if you are buying from a reputable sorce and these parts will have a FAA form 8130-3 with them you can of course fit "yellow tagged" parts but the sorce of these is not allways the most reputable (but its only your life that hangs on them).
The CAA Cof A renewal costs are about the same as the cost of running an american trust company so this offers no real money saving.
The place that the american register will save you a lot of money is if you want to do an IR and I suspect that it is the JAA licence requirments that are driving most people to paint "N" on the side of there aircraft.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not saying that dodgey parts be fitted, I wouldn't like to fly in a badly maintained aircraft.. There are organisations out there which will put your aircraft under an American trust company for as little as £350 per year, which I would suspect is still cheaper than a CAA CofA every 3 years.
You're right in saying that most people will want to be on the N register to take advantage of the FAA licencing benefits.
If I were going to buy (or when) an aeroplane in the US, I would buy one close to major overhaul time, get the aircraft overhauled in the US, new / reconditioned engines fitted, new avionics stack and then bring it home.....With the "£ for $ exchange" rate this would save some serious money.........
Cheers
EA
There are organisations out there which will put your aircraft under an American trust company for as little as £350 per year, which I would suspect is still cheaper than a CAA CofA every 3 years. You're right in saying that most people will want to be on the N register to take advantage of the FAA licencing benefits.
If I were going to buy (or when) an aeroplane in the US, I would buy one close to major overhaul time, get the aircraft overhauled in the US, new / reconditioned engines fitted, new avionics stack and then bring it home.....With the "£ for $ exchange" rate this would save some serious money.........
Cheers
EA
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What you have is quite a good plan but i would get yourself an american rep to keep an eye on the project as people are a bit more carefull if they think that the new owner of an aircraft living in the next town and not the other side of the atlantic.
as for yellow tagged parts the quality seems to vary remarkably depending on the company involved and i would be very carefull about fitting them if i did not know the reputation of the supplyer however fitting them to an american aircraft is perfectly leagal but may prove expencive in the long run.
as for yellow tagged parts the quality seems to vary remarkably depending on the company involved and i would be very carefull about fitting them if i did not know the reputation of the supplyer however fitting them to an american aircraft is perfectly leagal but may prove expencive in the long run.
Remember you get what you pay for, not that many years ago a UK company imported a fully overhauled Hiller UH12E from the USA at a very good price. For UK C of A an internal main tranmission inspection was mandated. It failed, it was then realised that all the other components on the aircraft had been overhauled by the same outfit including the engine. The whole lot had to be re-overhauled. For cheap read v expensive.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For UK C of A an internal main tranmission inspection was mandated
Its up to the owner or prospective buyer to ensure they get any work carried out by a reputable company, and all I can say is its tough luck if you decide to go with the cheapest, without seeking any advice or third party inspections....
Cheers
EA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: too near London
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Example: small classic american 2 seater 50 + years old
insurance - about £750 p.a.
Annual inspection/ permit renewal/ PFA membership - £225
Oil - 50p per hour
Petrol - £15 per hour
Labour for maintenance/rectification - £0
Loan over 7 years to buy about £200 a month (it's all mine now)
cost to buy £13500
It IS affordable. I have no idea what the hourly rate is; on a purely marginal basis I can fly for an hour in a delightful classic aeroplane for less than £20. And if somebody else comes along then it's a tenner or less for me, sharing costs!
Why is the "true" hourly rate irrelevant? Because I honestly don't feel it in the wallet - if something breaks then the 50 quid or whatever comes out of the 'housekeeping' and I fix it. I simply couldn't afford to go flying at club rates as much as I do now. If I look out of the window and the sun is shining I can go flying, it's as simple as that......
OK I haven't been completely honest because I pay nothing for hangarage (it lives outside) or the use of a grass airstrip (the farmer flies it - not very often - free of charge but puts his own petrol and oil in)
insurance - about £750 p.a.
Annual inspection/ permit renewal/ PFA membership - £225
Oil - 50p per hour
Petrol - £15 per hour
Labour for maintenance/rectification - £0
Loan over 7 years to buy about £200 a month (it's all mine now)
cost to buy £13500
It IS affordable. I have no idea what the hourly rate is; on a purely marginal basis I can fly for an hour in a delightful classic aeroplane for less than £20. And if somebody else comes along then it's a tenner or less for me, sharing costs!
Why is the "true" hourly rate irrelevant? Because I honestly don't feel it in the wallet - if something breaks then the 50 quid or whatever comes out of the 'housekeeping' and I fix it. I simply couldn't afford to go flying at club rates as much as I do now. If I look out of the window and the sun is shining I can go flying, it's as simple as that......
OK I haven't been completely honest because I pay nothing for hangarage (it lives outside) or the use of a grass airstrip (the farmer flies it - not very often - free of charge but puts his own petrol and oil in)
