4-Seat a/c for sale with 500 engine hours. £16k. What am I missing?
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4-Seat a/c for sale with 500 engine hours. £16k. What am I missing?
Just Plane Trading
So as a newbie low time student perusing the web I come across this. Seems to good to be true, so it must be.
What am I missing that needs replaced, fixed, overhauled etc etc. ?
Thanks
So as a newbie low time student perusing the web I come across this. Seems to good to be true, so it must be.
What am I missing that needs replaced, fixed, overhauled etc etc. ?
Thanks
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Just Plane Trading
So as a newbie low time student perusing the web I come across this. Seems to good to be true, so it must be.
What am I missing that needs replaced, fixed, overhauled etc etc. ?
Thanks
So as a newbie low time student perusing the web I come across this. Seems to good to be true, so it must be.
What am I missing that needs replaced, fixed, overhauled etc etc. ?
Thanks
Cheap for a reason.
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Too good to be true?
It's probably a fair price for the aircraft, as to be an aircraft with an operational future, it will need some investment - some plainly obvious, likely more which is not so obvious. Grummans are great planes, though they are different to repair than most other GA aircraft, and their value often reflects this.
As a potential owner, you must make yourself very aware of the characteristics of the aircraft you intend to purchase. Type clubs are a good start, though they are often frequented by owners who love their planes, and have learned to "manage" type challenges, so as an unfamiliar, you may have to dig for the facts. I good tool to understand the potential maintenance costs for an aircraft would be to PAY a maintenance shop for a couple of hours of their time, and have them review the logs of the aircraft, and invoices for the previous work, to establish a cost trend, and sense of completeness of the maintenance over the long term. Then you start to plan for the "owing" maintenance and surprises.
My advice to first time airplane purchasers has always been to consider your realistic budget, and then shop for an aircraft which has a valid C of A, and nothing big on the maintenance horizon - which costs around half the amount of your budget. The leaves you with a fair sum to cover the first year's operating costs, and contingency for unexpected things.
I've seen far too many aircraft up for sale, because the purchaser just did not budget well, and the newly purchased aircraft required unanticipated maintenance investment, which was left un done, and the plane languished for sale, not flyable, and of greatly reduced perceived value.
Always bear in mind that a valid C of A for a plane is like a certificate of fitness for a car - it means that the vehicle has met the standard. But the meeting the standard is at the time of inspection and as is. It may not account for what it's going to be like next year, with a bit more use, and a bit more wear and tear, and corrosion, where upon a whole bunch of work will be required to keep it airworthy.
It's probably a fair price for the aircraft, as to be an aircraft with an operational future, it will need some investment - some plainly obvious, likely more which is not so obvious. Grummans are great planes, though they are different to repair than most other GA aircraft, and their value often reflects this.
As a potential owner, you must make yourself very aware of the characteristics of the aircraft you intend to purchase. Type clubs are a good start, though they are often frequented by owners who love their planes, and have learned to "manage" type challenges, so as an unfamiliar, you may have to dig for the facts. I good tool to understand the potential maintenance costs for an aircraft would be to PAY a maintenance shop for a couple of hours of their time, and have them review the logs of the aircraft, and invoices for the previous work, to establish a cost trend, and sense of completeness of the maintenance over the long term. Then you start to plan for the "owing" maintenance and surprises.
My advice to first time airplane purchasers has always been to consider your realistic budget, and then shop for an aircraft which has a valid C of A, and nothing big on the maintenance horizon - which costs around half the amount of your budget. The leaves you with a fair sum to cover the first year's operating costs, and contingency for unexpected things.
I've seen far too many aircraft up for sale, because the purchaser just did not budget well, and the newly purchased aircraft required unanticipated maintenance investment, which was left un done, and the plane languished for sale, not flyable, and of greatly reduced perceived value.
Always bear in mind that a valid C of A for a plane is like a certificate of fitness for a car - it means that the vehicle has met the standard. But the meeting the standard is at the time of inspection and as is. It may not account for what it's going to be like next year, with a bit more use, and a bit more wear and tear, and corrosion, where upon a whole bunch of work will be required to keep it airworthy.
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Thanks for the sound advice. I guess I'm trying to work out of its worth owning outright, part-owning or just chartering. All of which depends on projected usage.
This is a long way off but was just curious. As with everything it seems the initial capital cost is just the tip.
So a C of A is otherwise known as the 'annual' (?) and is a costly and through inspection done by an approved organisation (?)
Thanks
This is a long way off but was just curious. As with everything it seems the initial capital cost is just the tip.
So a C of A is otherwise known as the 'annual' (?) and is a costly and through inspection done by an approved organisation (?)
Thanks
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Could be made into something nice I suppose if you were willing to throw a lot of money at it.
Personally I would have thought it was probably a tad overpriced. Fully sorted it would be only worth a maximum of £30k.
Avionics...Only the Trig TT31 Txpdr is realistically usable. The rest is just old junk. So would cost you a minimum of £10k to install 8.33 Comm and some sort of cheap Nav equipment.
Then there is the paint which will cost you a minimum of £10k to sort to a reasonable standard.
And that is the known issues. You would need to budget on at least another £5k-6k for the unknowns...
The good news is it is a 1978 model which means it shouldn't have the earlier AA5 debonding issues. They were fully sorted by this time and had gone back to the original vanilla glue.
Personally I would have thought it was probably a tad overpriced. Fully sorted it would be only worth a maximum of £30k.
Avionics...Only the Trig TT31 Txpdr is realistically usable. The rest is just old junk. So would cost you a minimum of £10k to install 8.33 Comm and some sort of cheap Nav equipment.
Then there is the paint which will cost you a minimum of £10k to sort to a reasonable standard.
And that is the known issues. You would need to budget on at least another £5k-6k for the unknowns...
The good news is it is a 1978 model which means it shouldn't have the earlier AA5 debonding issues. They were fully sorted by this time and had gone back to the original vanilla glue.
Last edited by Shoestring Flyer; 28th Nov 2015 at 13:34. Reason: Spelling
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Just by looking at the ad:
- the avionics is the usual ancient mix of museum parts and will need serious investment, only Mode S is up to date and 833 COM will be next must, I would expect a minimum of about 10k until usable (which will not give a moving map IFR GPS!, add another 5-10 for a used basic one)
- cosmetic challenge means it is worn to death and will need paint job exterior, maybe 15k, plus interior redone, maybe another 10k
- 500h reads low, but within which time frame?
- Grumman Tiger means NO Mogas, as it is not STC'able according to Petersen
- did I miss? No autopilot? (if you want one, add another 25k)
- my first reaction > hangar queen, old owner, rarely flown, maybe even died already and the heirs try to get rid of it?, so damage by resting may be an issue -> at least oil analysis and endoscopic examination may be advised, another 5k
Add all money until ready up -> +40k on top of the 15k asked for => 55k until you have a realistic spending figure. That is not really cheap and you still have the engine of unknown age in an old Avgas airframe. Comparable already equipped and cared for real nice Tigers you will get for around 45k, so unless you are looking for a project to customize an aircraft to your specs, it is not a bargain.
Grummans are quite nice to fly and they make reasonable light-IFR traveling machines, but the premium to spend until renders the airframe to an unimportant carrier of all the things you need to put in.
- the avionics is the usual ancient mix of museum parts and will need serious investment, only Mode S is up to date and 833 COM will be next must, I would expect a minimum of about 10k until usable (which will not give a moving map IFR GPS!, add another 5-10 for a used basic one)
- cosmetic challenge means it is worn to death and will need paint job exterior, maybe 15k, plus interior redone, maybe another 10k
- 500h reads low, but within which time frame?
- Grumman Tiger means NO Mogas, as it is not STC'able according to Petersen
- did I miss? No autopilot? (if you want one, add another 25k)
- my first reaction > hangar queen, old owner, rarely flown, maybe even died already and the heirs try to get rid of it?, so damage by resting may be an issue -> at least oil analysis and endoscopic examination may be advised, another 5k
Add all money until ready up -> +40k on top of the 15k asked for => 55k until you have a realistic spending figure. That is not really cheap and you still have the engine of unknown age in an old Avgas airframe. Comparable already equipped and cared for real nice Tigers you will get for around 45k, so unless you are looking for a project to customize an aircraft to your specs, it is not a bargain.
Grummans are quite nice to fly and they make reasonable light-IFR traveling machines, but the premium to spend until renders the airframe to an unimportant carrier of all the things you need to put in.
We don't really talk about a C of A anymore in Europe. The C of A exists as a continually running document. It is validated by the Airworthiness revue certificate, ARC. The ARC is issued annually based on the maintenance history of the aircraft. The organisation issuing the ARC is not necessarily the same as the one carrying out the maintenance.
The annual inspection might be carried out by a licensed engineer or a maintenance organisation. Cost, how long is a piece of string!!!!!!
The annual inspection might be carried out by a licensed engineer or a maintenance organisation. Cost, how long is a piece of string!!!!!!
On N-register and given an involved and reasonably funded owner, an aircraft like this would be a perfect candidate for light ongoing restoration and many years of service. I can't on the face of it see anything negative about this one, except for somewhat high airframe hours (5720 TTAF). Tigers are good and popular aircraft, notwithstanding the outrageous and fundamentally unnecessary hassles associated with aircraft ownership in EASA Land.
what do you want ?
hum ho OP, it depends what you want from this airplane. I will simply relate my own experience in this regard and you make what you can of it.
Around 50 years ago I perused the 'for sale' columns of Flight International and as a result purchased a four seat airplane with current CofA and maintenance records....in flyaway condition....for £500. It was low cost at that time. At time of acquisition I was student ppl. My idea was hours building with view to CPL. It worked out OK. I was entirely untroubled about residual value although in fact it sold easily at disposal.....Was lots of fun as well.
So I suggest decide what you want from the venture....and go for it.
Around 50 years ago I perused the 'for sale' columns of Flight International and as a result purchased a four seat airplane with current CofA and maintenance records....in flyaway condition....for £500. It was low cost at that time. At time of acquisition I was student ppl. My idea was hours building with view to CPL. It worked out OK. I was entirely untroubled about residual value although in fact it sold easily at disposal.....Was lots of fun as well.
So I suggest decide what you want from the venture....and go for it.
If regularly flown by a group, it is more likely that issues have been resolved as they came up.
Look over the logs with a mechanic experienced in Grummans. There is a type club. Check with them and consider flying over a mechanic.
Provided no glaring issues raise their head in the logs, book a flight with an IFR pilot to check out the panel. You will likely be in the back seat as an owner and your experienced IFR pilot will be in front.
Perhaps some avionics are inop and the aircraft is no longer approved for IFR. But if it is, it may be well worth while keeping it that way.
In the pre GPS days (aka Stone Age) , the panel would be considered pretty good for IFR.
Converting to glass could cost the asking price if not more.
The glider folk put a PDA, iPad, Dell Streak whatever on a RAM mount. Lots of software available including moving map showing airspace plus you can take it home and load up your flight plan.
Best of all you don't need to go through the CAA approved modification process.
As for paint, it's been kept outside
When you want to spend money, research Eastern Europe for a refinish.
Look over the logs with a mechanic experienced in Grummans. There is a type club. Check with them and consider flying over a mechanic.
Provided no glaring issues raise their head in the logs, book a flight with an IFR pilot to check out the panel. You will likely be in the back seat as an owner and your experienced IFR pilot will be in front.
Perhaps some avionics are inop and the aircraft is no longer approved for IFR. But if it is, it may be well worth while keeping it that way.
In the pre GPS days (aka Stone Age) , the panel would be considered pretty good for IFR.
Converting to glass could cost the asking price if not more.
The glider folk put a PDA, iPad, Dell Streak whatever on a RAM mount. Lots of software available including moving map showing airspace plus you can take it home and load up your flight plan.
Best of all you don't need to go through the CAA approved modification process.
As for paint, it's been kept outside
When you want to spend money, research Eastern Europe for a refinish.
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Maintaining any aircraft costs "some money", rather take a cold practical view of what you want to do and what you can afford.
If you just want to bimble around the sky in good VFR conditions with little or no luggage then a modern permit aircraft is the way to go. Permit aircraft are strictly VFR only.
If you want to go places and carry a decent load you need something bigger and that means certified. Get an instrument rating to get the full benefit of your investment. A well known and well supported model such as the Cessna 182 is a good practical workhorse.
Beware of older aircraft, they are almost always being sold because some expensive work is getting too close for the sellers comfort.
Above all - flying is an expensive hobby and penny pinching can be very dangerous so make sure that you can afford the long term commitment required.
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All the above is, generally, good advice.
The only thing I would add is that Just Plane Trading's advertised prices, over the years, have seemed pretty fair to me.
I see many aircraft, both C of A and LAA Permit, advertised on other sites that are, most definitely, overpriced.
Choose carefully where you take it for maintenance as well.
Some maintenance organisations are top quality with fair pricing whereas others are a complete rip-off (and not necessarily that great).
The only thing I would add is that Just Plane Trading's advertised prices, over the years, have seemed pretty fair to me.
I see many aircraft, both C of A and LAA Permit, advertised on other sites that are, most definitely, overpriced.
Choose carefully where you take it for maintenance as well.
Some maintenance organisations are top quality with fair pricing whereas others are a complete rip-off (and not necessarily that great).
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Get a trusted (Grumman experienced) engineer to look at it first but if you can buy a sound, reliable little steed for that price, go for it.
Two ways I look at ownership.
200 hours at £80 an hour equals £16k. Add fuel and maybe still cheaper than hiring. Then you could throw it away and get another. As long as you look at aircraft ownership as an expense rather than an investment, you won't go wrong.
If you think it is a keeper, just remember that if it needs paint, avionics and interior, any money you spend on those won't be recovered (may be a little, but no where near what you spend). There is no financial incentive to fit a GPS or whatever.
I think the AA5B is undervalued compared to what they would go for in the USA, no idea why.
Two ways I look at ownership.
200 hours at £80 an hour equals £16k. Add fuel and maybe still cheaper than hiring. Then you could throw it away and get another. As long as you look at aircraft ownership as an expense rather than an investment, you won't go wrong.
If you think it is a keeper, just remember that if it needs paint, avionics and interior, any money you spend on those won't be recovered (may be a little, but no where near what you spend). There is no financial incentive to fit a GPS or whatever.
I think the AA5B is undervalued compared to what they would go for in the USA, no idea why.
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What about this
Here's a thought.
E.g.
Cirrus SR22 G2 GTS aircraft for sale - GBP 126,522 - F-HEXP - AirCraft24.com
10 Members: £15k each buy-in.
Total Revenue: £150k
A/C Cost: £125k
Surplus for Initial Costs: £25k
Monthly Contribution Fee (MCF): £149.00 Per Member paid by direct debit.
Total Annual Revenue from MCF: £17.9k
MCF used to cover MIHSF costs (Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Surplus Fund)
Cost Charged Per Flight Hour: £0.00 (Dry)
Fuel Used Paid By Member Flying.
Mobile booking and maintenance management app.
Group Aim: Shared risk, shared costs, reduced-cost flying for members who have bought-in.
£0.00 per hour flying but with fixed monthly fee encourages flying - the more you fly the more notional ROI each member gets. Per hour charge is a barrier / discouragement.
Minimum experience and training level required for members for everyone's benefit. Individual members liable for cost of damage or insurance excess for anything that happens on their watch.
This may well be pretty pie in the sky. You need to remember that I am pretty new to the world of GA, and the associated costs and economics - not an ideal base from which to think about such things but everyone needs to starts somewhere. And it is only personal musings. Thoughts I can splurge out of my brain on a forum to either get shot down, or not.
It's worth saying however that I have put groups together in this and similar models for yachts and motor boats, which is my business.
No personal financial gain for me - just flying, when buy-in money is spent, it's mentally written off as a leisure spend so no expectation of future recoup.
Formula may be flawed in an aviation context because I simply do not have;
a). Experience with reality of actual costs;
b). Understanding of market concentration;
c). Contacts.
The particular example linked above is obviously closer to TBO but it's the method rather than specific aircraft I'm talking about. Find a different type or costed a/c and drop in your own figures
Anyway like I say. Brain splurge, and I defer to the more experienced for comment...
E.g.
Cirrus SR22 G2 GTS aircraft for sale - GBP 126,522 - F-HEXP - AirCraft24.com
10 Members: £15k each buy-in.
Total Revenue: £150k
A/C Cost: £125k
Surplus for Initial Costs: £25k
Monthly Contribution Fee (MCF): £149.00 Per Member paid by direct debit.
Total Annual Revenue from MCF: £17.9k
MCF used to cover MIHSF costs (Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Surplus Fund)
Cost Charged Per Flight Hour: £0.00 (Dry)
Fuel Used Paid By Member Flying.
Mobile booking and maintenance management app.
Group Aim: Shared risk, shared costs, reduced-cost flying for members who have bought-in.
£0.00 per hour flying but with fixed monthly fee encourages flying - the more you fly the more notional ROI each member gets. Per hour charge is a barrier / discouragement.
Minimum experience and training level required for members for everyone's benefit. Individual members liable for cost of damage or insurance excess for anything that happens on their watch.
This may well be pretty pie in the sky. You need to remember that I am pretty new to the world of GA, and the associated costs and economics - not an ideal base from which to think about such things but everyone needs to starts somewhere. And it is only personal musings. Thoughts I can splurge out of my brain on a forum to either get shot down, or not.
It's worth saying however that I have put groups together in this and similar models for yachts and motor boats, which is my business.
No personal financial gain for me - just flying, when buy-in money is spent, it's mentally written off as a leisure spend so no expectation of future recoup.
Formula may be flawed in an aviation context because I simply do not have;
a). Experience with reality of actual costs;
b). Understanding of market concentration;
c). Contacts.
The particular example linked above is obviously closer to TBO but it's the method rather than specific aircraft I'm talking about. Find a different type or costed a/c and drop in your own figures
Anyway like I say. Brain splurge, and I defer to the more experienced for comment...
Last edited by CSCOT; 30th Nov 2015 at 20:34.