Spinning!
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Refreshing change
It is a refreshing change that so much common sence is being written on these pages on the spinning subject.
A lot happens in a spin and for those new to flying it happens very fast so when taking a student spinning it is vital that the briefing is very comprehensive, it is also very likely that the student will only be able to absorb the information from 3 or 4 spins due to sensory overload.
To achieve a student who is confident with their ability to recover from a spin it is likely to take three or four flights that are quite short.
My tactic is following a ground brief for slow flight and the basic spinning brief to fly the slow flight part of the training and then demonstrate the spin ( usually twice) and then let the student do one or two spins.
Once the student has recovered from the inital shock of what is for the tyro quite a dynamic situation I re-brief using a number of instructional aids including the RAF training film " spinning modern aircraft " this wonderful bit of early 1960's flim making will in a very low tech way unlock the mysteries of the spin to the student, the most important thing is that it explains clearly to the student why the correct recovery technique will result in an increased rate of roll just before the aircraft recovers.
I am convinced that the increase in roll rate during spin recovery has surprised some pilots and as a result they have un-applied the correct control inputs with fatal results.
I cannot over emphasise the importance of using the recovery technique detailed in the aircrafts flight manual, even slight mis handling can result in delay in recovering from the spin and this will result in the use of a lot of altitude......all of it below you !
A lot happens in a spin and for those new to flying it happens very fast so when taking a student spinning it is vital that the briefing is very comprehensive, it is also very likely that the student will only be able to absorb the information from 3 or 4 spins due to sensory overload.
To achieve a student who is confident with their ability to recover from a spin it is likely to take three or four flights that are quite short.
My tactic is following a ground brief for slow flight and the basic spinning brief to fly the slow flight part of the training and then demonstrate the spin ( usually twice) and then let the student do one or two spins.
Once the student has recovered from the inital shock of what is for the tyro quite a dynamic situation I re-brief using a number of instructional aids including the RAF training film " spinning modern aircraft " this wonderful bit of early 1960's flim making will in a very low tech way unlock the mysteries of the spin to the student, the most important thing is that it explains clearly to the student why the correct recovery technique will result in an increased rate of roll just before the aircraft recovers.
I am convinced that the increase in roll rate during spin recovery has surprised some pilots and as a result they have un-applied the correct control inputs with fatal results.
I cannot over emphasise the importance of using the recovery technique detailed in the aircrafts flight manual, even slight mis handling can result in delay in recovering from the spin and this will result in the use of a lot of altitude......all of it below you !
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I agree re spinning a 152 Aerobat (I'm sure sure that's the right designation, but you know what I mean) with full flap; it is allowed (I have always understood) and therefore done. But beware exceeding limiting speeds in the recovery.
Even more fun is side-slipping a 152 with full flap and no power, as in a PFL. With the maximum slip angle that can be achieved and held, the glide slope is astonishingly steep. It's quite difficult to straighten up < 35ft over the threshold of the selected field and touch down in one smooth controlled movement, but it pays to practise it.
Even more fun is side-slipping a 152 with full flap and no power, as in a PFL. With the maximum slip angle that can be achieved and held, the glide slope is astonishingly steep. It's quite difficult to straighten up < 35ft over the threshold of the selected field and touch down in one smooth controlled movement, but it pays to practise it.
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The reason Some Cessnas should not be slipped with full flap, usually the 40 deg variants, is that you can get a sudden and unexpected strong pitch down due to the fin blanking the elevator.
Bill tells that the span of the flaps results in the trailing outboard corner of the extended flap being in just the right place to place a vortex across the H stab in that side in a slip, blanking the elevator on that side. I have done this many times, and it is controllable (or the plane would have not been certified). But there is some sponginess in pitch, so caution is needed. Doing it right into the flare would be unwise.
The 152, on the other hand can be slipped right onto a nice one wheel landing with no problem, other than some tire chirping if you do it to pavement.
I agree re spinning a 152 Aerobat (I'm sure sure that's the right designation, but you know what I mean) with full flap; it is allowed (I have always understood) and therefore done. But beware exceeding limiting speeds in the recovery.
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Believe early 172s with 40 of flap are prohibited but later models with only 30 max flap are OK same with 150 these have 40 max so prohibited 152s 30 limit so OK. Used to fly the 177 which is OK to slip with full flap 30 but power must NOT be applied with slip or it will flip on to it's back. So ball must be centred before apply power don't know if this applies to other high wing Cessna's.
If I was a low hour student I would not practise stalls solo may exceed skills to recover if she did roll into a spin.
If I was a low hour student I would not practise stalls solo may exceed skills to recover if she did roll into a spin.
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The topic of slips in 172s was covered here:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-question.html
No, not applicable to high wing Cessnas, not even the 177.
'Little reason to add power during a slip, but in any case, a properly flown slip does not involve a stall, as that would be a sort of spin entry - which is not approved in a 177, and certainly not with flaps out. You can "flip [a Cessna] (or other types) on their back" with power - it's sort of a snap roll. If done from a slip, that sure was a horribly misflown slip!
Snap rolls are bad in Cessnas other than Aerobats.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-question.html
Used to fly the 177 which is OK to slip with full flap 30 but power must NOT be applied with slip or it will flip on to it's back. So ball must be centred before apply power don't know if this applies to other high wing Cessna's.
'Little reason to add power during a slip, but in any case, a properly flown slip does not involve a stall, as that would be a sort of spin entry - which is not approved in a 177, and certainly not with flaps out. You can "flip [a Cessna] (or other types) on their back" with power - it's sort of a snap roll. If done from a slip, that sure was a horribly misflown slip!
Snap rolls are bad in Cessnas other than Aerobats.
If stalls are properly taught then the reaction to lower the nose to reduce AOA and rudder as necessary to stop any yaw will be automatic reactions. It is impossible for an airplane to spin if yaw is controlled when the aircraft approaches a stall and when it stalls.
Spins were removed from the PPL syllabus in most countries because almost all real world inadvertent spins are entered while maneuvering after takeoff or prior to landing and thus were at such a low altitude that they were unrecoverable even if the correct spin recovery procedure was used. Now PPL training is concentrated on stall/spin recognition and recovery before the aircraft departs controlled flight. The secret not being a victim of the stall spin accident is not spin training, it is training to avoid the stall/spin sequence from ever happening.
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BPF
That is the problem with modern thinking on pilot training
Always keep the AOA right and you can't go wrong?
Sadly there are far to many loss of control accidents on approach like the recent Malibu crash, on departure and high level in VMC or IMC
In a perfect world avoidance training is all that is required end of story and all in the garden is beautiful!
Sadly not the case! Pilots are imperfect creatures and they do make mistakes
Any loss of control accident whether resulting in a stall a spin or spiral dive will end up with an impact with the ground if low enough and not even a stall will recover from 50 feet
But it's not about whether you can recover a spin from 200 feet although you may retrieve the situation from developing but it's about aircraft handling and feeling comfortable with the aircraft out of shape in that way you stand a far better chance of recovering a situation than some poor guy who has been taught avoidance but not beyond!
The car driving is a good example. As an ex racer I am comfortable with a car sitting with the back in an oversteer situation or under steer, sliding or playing the car between all three.
Another driver is taught avoidance and never gets the car out of shape until one day they Skid and under steer straight into a brick wall foot firmly planted on the brake (( that is what we are discussing here
Pace
That is the problem with modern thinking on pilot training
Always keep the AOA right and you can't go wrong?
Sadly there are far to many loss of control accidents on approach like the recent Malibu crash, on departure and high level in VMC or IMC
In a perfect world avoidance training is all that is required end of story and all in the garden is beautiful!
Sadly not the case! Pilots are imperfect creatures and they do make mistakes
Any loss of control accident whether resulting in a stall a spin or spiral dive will end up with an impact with the ground if low enough and not even a stall will recover from 50 feet
But it's not about whether you can recover a spin from 200 feet although you may retrieve the situation from developing but it's about aircraft handling and feeling comfortable with the aircraft out of shape in that way you stand a far better chance of recovering a situation than some poor guy who has been taught avoidance but not beyond!
The car driving is a good example. As an ex racer I am comfortable with a car sitting with the back in an oversteer situation or under steer, sliding or playing the car between all three.
Another driver is taught avoidance and never gets the car out of shape until one day they Skid and under steer straight into a brick wall foot firmly planted on the brake (( that is what we are discussing here
Pace
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Pace - I agree. However, how does a pilot gather and maintain the right sort of experience to be comfortable with the aeroplane 'out of shape'? When I did the PPL (late '70s) spinning was in the syllabus and we did them, recovering almost by rote in the C150. We did a few during training and had to demonstrate entry and recovery in the test. However, I don't think I was much better prepared for an inadvertent spin than is today's PPL because we didn't do it much, and we did it by rote in an aeroplane reluctant to demonstrate classic stall/spin departure characteristics.
It wasn't until I started to regularly fly aerobatics that I started to acquire a 'feel' for the aeroplane being 'unhappy' leading to an ability to predict 'departure' and effect recovery (or avoidance of departure) without really having to think about it. I think that fits your analogy of the driver's ability to safely deal with an under/oversteering car?
And if it happens for real at low level one will require that ability to prevent departure without thinking about it. There won't be time for thinking, and if departure actually happens recovery at low level is highly unlikely.
So unless we are to mandate regular aerobatic flying for all pilots, is there really any point in considering re-introducing mandatory spin recovery training into the PPL?
One further point - I have experienced a great many spins and some of them have been a bit 'odd'. Thankfully all recovered OK but it has left me convinced that spinning is not an accurate art. Most of the time the aeroplane does what you expect, but once in a while it doesn't. It's probably wise, therefore, to always do deliberate spinning while wearing a parachute, and with enough height to use it if necessary. I admit I didn't often do that - it was only in the Yak that we wore 'chutes on every flight. Never bothered in the Chippy, Citabria and others.
It wasn't until I started to regularly fly aerobatics that I started to acquire a 'feel' for the aeroplane being 'unhappy' leading to an ability to predict 'departure' and effect recovery (or avoidance of departure) without really having to think about it. I think that fits your analogy of the driver's ability to safely deal with an under/oversteering car?
And if it happens for real at low level one will require that ability to prevent departure without thinking about it. There won't be time for thinking, and if departure actually happens recovery at low level is highly unlikely.
So unless we are to mandate regular aerobatic flying for all pilots, is there really any point in considering re-introducing mandatory spin recovery training into the PPL?
One further point - I have experienced a great many spins and some of them have been a bit 'odd'. Thankfully all recovered OK but it has left me convinced that spinning is not an accurate art. Most of the time the aeroplane does what you expect, but once in a while it doesn't. It's probably wise, therefore, to always do deliberate spinning while wearing a parachute, and with enough height to use it if necessary. I admit I didn't often do that - it was only in the Yak that we wore 'chutes on every flight. Never bothered in the Chippy, Citabria and others.
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Not sure it's relevant to the discussion, but I once tried to spin a Cherokee 140, property of a friend, with another ex-RAF Transport pilot friend aboard whose day job at that time was flying a Herald.
We climbed to 8,000 ft to do this, and using the normal techniques for provoking a spin we could not do it, so finally I tried the method I learned from my Polish PPL instructor....slow to level flight just above the stall, then chop the power, stick/yoke hard back and full rudder, hold until spinning, centralise, recover.
It nearly finished us off. The aircraft did not spin, but went into a terrifyingly steep spiral dive, from which recovery meant trying not to overstress anything, while getting the nose up asap.
(I'm not proud of it, it was a stupid thing to do. We survived by the Grace of God and a strongly-built aircraft.)
We climbed to 8,000 ft to do this, and using the normal techniques for provoking a spin we could not do it, so finally I tried the method I learned from my Polish PPL instructor....slow to level flight just above the stall, then chop the power, stick/yoke hard back and full rudder, hold until spinning, centralise, recover.
It nearly finished us off. The aircraft did not spin, but went into a terrifyingly steep spiral dive, from which recovery meant trying not to overstress anything, while getting the nose up asap.
(I'm not proud of it, it was a stupid thing to do. We survived by the Grace of God and a strongly-built aircraft.)
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It nearly finished us off. The aircraft did not spin, but went into a terrifyingly steep spiral dive, from which recovery meant trying not to overstress anything, while getting the nose up asap.
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There were two PC12 loss of control and High speed breakups from high altitude ! With the one the traces showed the aircraft all over the place from stalling to turning to a a high speed dive where it broke up!
We rarely discuss spiral dived yet in many ways they are potentially more dangerous than spins!
Even a slight pressure on the column can break the aircraft! In an article I read on beyond VNE the author recommended dropping the gear even if way over gear speed neforeattempting a pull out at very high speed.
Again quick and instinctive identification and rectification are a must! How the heck can you do that if you have never experienced a spin
Pace
We rarely discuss spiral dived yet in many ways they are potentially more dangerous than spins!
Even a slight pressure on the column can break the aircraft! In an article I read on beyond VNE the author recommended dropping the gear even if way over gear speed neforeattempting a pull out at very high speed.
Again quick and instinctive identification and rectification are a must! How the heck can you do that if you have never experienced a spin
Pace
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Foxmoth - just for the record, I was properly trained in spin recovery (visual and under the hood), so I did recognise the spiral dive for what it was, mainly by the rapid and large increase in IAS, so that I could and did recover quickly without breaking up the aircraft, before the speed built up to the point where that would not have been possible. IE, within, I guess, 5 - 8 seconds. My RAF friend said little, at the time, but then stooging around all day in a Herald dulls the senses.
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In that case it shows the importance of being current, having trained spinning in PA28 I know how it accelerates in a spiral and compared to some aircraft it is not that fast, with a "flick" entry as you describe the speed will normally be under 60kts on entry and one of the first things to check is what is happening with the speed, certainly it should be possible to have recovery started before 100kts and with no power on and the drag from the pull through the speed should not rise that far above that, certainly easy to keep under the Vne of 148 kts.
Last edited by foxmoth; 3rd Dec 2015 at 18:40.
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FoxMoth
My reference to beyond VNE and your best solution to that is dropping the gear was directed at very slippery retractable aircraft which can accelerate very fast and to beyond VNE.
The PC12 break up was thought to be an attempted pull out from such a spiral/dive where the aircraft will break with the slightest pull.
A much more draggy airframe with fixed undercarriage will not cause such a threat but there are many much faster aircraft which will accelerate like the Mooney or Cirrus unlike maybe the PA28
Who in such a situation at very high speed would think of the gear with gear limiting speeds drummed into us
You might end up minus the gear doors but it could save your life
Pace
My reference to beyond VNE and your best solution to that is dropping the gear was directed at very slippery retractable aircraft which can accelerate very fast and to beyond VNE.
The PC12 break up was thought to be an attempted pull out from such a spiral/dive where the aircraft will break with the slightest pull.
A much more draggy airframe with fixed undercarriage will not cause such a threat but there are many much faster aircraft which will accelerate like the Mooney or Cirrus unlike maybe the PA28
Who in such a situation at very high speed would think of the gear with gear limiting speeds drummed into us
You might end up minus the gear doors but it could save your life
Pace
I remember looking at my instructor in a Tomahawk immediately after a stall and saying 'are we in a spiral dive or a spin?'. When I looked back at the ASI we were just a whisker off VNE.
There was an interesting article in Flying magazine (I think) a while back stating that in a spiral dive even the trim forces for Va could potentially cause a structural failure - you don't necessarily need to pull back on the stick at all.
Revisiting the PC-12 Crash | Flying Magazine
There was an interesting article in Flying magazine (I think) a while back stating that in a spiral dive even the trim forces for Va could potentially cause a structural failure - you don't necessarily need to pull back on the stick at all.
Revisiting the PC-12 Crash | Flying Magazine
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My mate was P2 in a 1-11 one day Manchester to Liverpool positioning flight, P1 flying, my mate doing the paperwork, when my mate noticed the boss hadn't raised the gear and they were through the speed where they should have done this. When my mate pointed this out, the boss leaned over and whipped the gear lever 'up'.
My mate was expecting to hear the doors depart, but luckily all was well. As he said later, leaving the gear down and reducing speed would have been the correct thing to do - the doors are much more vulnerable to being ripped off during gear transit than when the gear is locked down.
My mate was expecting to hear the doors depart, but luckily all was well. As he said later, leaving the gear down and reducing speed would have been the correct thing to do - the doors are much more vulnerable to being ripped off during gear transit than when the gear is locked down.
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Recovery form spiral dive - beware of 'rolling G' which can break an aeroplane at less loading than straight 'G'. Level the wings while taking off the power, then ease out of the dive.
At the risk of teaching egg sucking, simply pulling back when still in the spiral will increase 'G', speed, and rate of descent. But not for long!
At the risk of teaching egg sucking, simply pulling back when still in the spiral will increase 'G', speed, and rate of descent. But not for long!
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In the extreme situation in which the Pilatus found itself, lowering the gear could be part of the spiral dive recovery: Power off, level the wings while trimming nose down, lower the gear — never mind the doors — and don't let the nose rise too rapidly. In a reciprocating-engine airplane, drag can be further increased by pushing the prop to high rpm.
the problem is we are not taught these options it is not suggested in any training for spiral dive or dive recovery and sadly because we are taught in the likes of the C150 or PA28 and no consideration is given to faster more slippery aircraft that a normal PPL might progress to.
So is the training at fault and should more out of the box thinking be encouraged ?
frankly who in such an extreme situation would even think of that?
Pace