Trial Flights
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Do NOT let low cost be your primary consideration. It's more important that you feel comfortable there, that the school seems to be well run, that you get on with the instructor, and that overall your gut feeling about the place is good.
In aviation, as in most things, you tend to get what you pay for. And some of us have found that out the hard way.
In aviation, as in most things, you tend to get what you pay for. And some of us have found that out the hard way.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: UK
Think "Notice" should be renamed "Advertising Notice". Only ever came accross one school that did a £3000 PPL and I thought they had moved away from that airfield and were not advertising business from the genmeral public where they are now.
"You get what you pay for" is a lesson hard-learned by most.
If it seems cheap, there has to be a corner or two cut somewhere. It may only lead to more training with any other place you go to fly before they let you lose with their precious aircraft.
An extra tenner will make no difference in the long run. Budget £6000ish and make your decision on aircraft, instructor and the atmosphere in the school. Ask a few students there.
Buy price, buy twice!!
"You get what you pay for" is a lesson hard-learned by most.
If it seems cheap, there has to be a corner or two cut somewhere. It may only lead to more training with any other place you go to fly before they let you lose with their precious aircraft.
An extra tenner will make no difference in the long run. Budget £6000ish and make your decision on aircraft, instructor and the atmosphere in the school. Ask a few students there.
Buy price, buy twice!!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: leeds
Well, bloody hell, the personal abuse proves they don't like the truth, or anyone who tells it.
The trial lesson debate is futile, no-one said don't do it but just beware of the snare and similar sneaky tricks as they have, helpfully, outlined above.
The (around) £3000 JAA-PPL courses are a fact (just look at past and recent Pilot magazines) and it is obvious, if not well-kinown, that several schools have been providing them for years, at the same airfields and, apparently, under the same ownership.
The rip-off conclusion is simple arithmetic, only based on suggestions, NOT from me, of £95 per hour, just for a lesson, and that you should 'budget' £6000, for a course, (=double what you could or should pay).
The trial lesson debate is futile, no-one said don't do it but just beware of the snare and similar sneaky tricks as they have, helpfully, outlined above.
The (around) £3000 JAA-PPL courses are a fact (just look at past and recent Pilot magazines) and it is obvious, if not well-kinown, that several schools have been providing them for years, at the same airfields and, apparently, under the same ownership.
The rip-off conclusion is simple arithmetic, only based on suggestions, NOT from me, of £95 per hour, just for a lesson, and that you should 'budget' £6000, for a course, (=double what you could or should pay).
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
From: Cloud Nine
Notice - '£95 hours are a rip-off' - nonsens. It depends on the ac, and bear in mind that most clubs are trying to keep rates down AND charge a membership fee to cover some of the fixed costs.
THAT is why TLs are more expensive per hr than the equivalent rate for club members. I would say £95 for an hour is excellent value (particularly if it includes the landing fee and instructors fee). A good part of that will also be to cover the extra insurance costs involved with TLs, and if the TLs are done properly there will be about 30mins of ground school beforehand.
Enjoy it, and then keep coming back for more !!
THAT is why TLs are more expensive per hr than the equivalent rate for club members. I would say £95 for an hour is excellent value (particularly if it includes the landing fee and instructors fee). A good part of that will also be to cover the extra insurance costs involved with TLs, and if the TLs are done properly there will be about 30mins of ground school beforehand.
Enjoy it, and then keep coming back for more !!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: UK
Notice,
I am sorry but I have not NOTICED these so called ADs. How big are these AD's ???? Please NOTIFY us all because I would like to informed, if you cannot write the name's of the companies because of so called advertising give us the page numbers and the issue number we will then look for ourselves...
And if you cannot do that why don't you just give us a rest and GIVE YOUR NOTICE IN and leave this site....
You are becoming boring, you put everything down, you have no hope for anyone, except what you think should be a good price.
I wonder have you ever thought about running a flight school and if so why not write you so called numbers down, and then we can all inspect them, oh yes without cutting any corners....There is somthing really wrong with the sort of price you are talking about, and if you can believe this can be done with safty inmind .....Well
I think you should change your name to
Notice Nothing
It speaks for itself...........
I am sorry but I have not NOTICED these so called ADs. How big are these AD's ???? Please NOTIFY us all because I would like to informed, if you cannot write the name's of the companies because of so called advertising give us the page numbers and the issue number we will then look for ourselves...
And if you cannot do that why don't you just give us a rest and GIVE YOUR NOTICE IN and leave this site....
You are becoming boring, you put everything down, you have no hope for anyone, except what you think should be a good price.
I wonder have you ever thought about running a flight school and if so why not write you so called numbers down, and then we can all inspect them, oh yes without cutting any corners....There is somthing really wrong with the sort of price you are talking about, and if you can believe this can be done with safty inmind .....Well
I think you should change your name to
Notice Nothing
It speaks for itself...........
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: UK
Notice
I've only ever seen one £3000 PPL advertised in the UK. And I certainly don't want to put that particular outfit down as it has been debated at length in a recent thread. Suffice to to say that £3000, yes a good deal, bought you 45 hours and nothing else. You got what you paid for and the staff there told you so. Not a bad thing, just a different approach.
If you're not advertising for them, I apologise.
However,
£6000ish comes from the following:
An average student takes 55 to 65 hours to complete a PPL. Sure I saw a lot last year who got it in 45 hours. I also saw a lot who took 85 hours. In short 45 hours is a MINIMUM, nothing else.
Add to that books, navigation equipment, you're own decent headset if you feel the need, exam fees and test fees where applied, medical, away landing fees, accomodation if you going away for intensive training......................
You may choose better, newer or bigger aircraft to fly. You may choose to learn at a busy airfield with landing fees and holding times, getting less done each hour but wanting to get used to busy airspace and feeling the need to get your R/T sorted quickly.
If you opt for a £3000 PPL in the States, you still need the flights there, equipment, you may not complete the course in the time and I've never met anyone who didn't feel THEMSELVES they they needed and extra 3-10 hours after a US course to get used to flying in the UK.
If someone new to flying wants to know whats involved then lets at least be honest. Theres more space to give them all the info here than there is in a small advert with an eye-grabbing headline price.
If all this can be done for £3000, any Flying School will give you an Ops job tomorrow!!!!!!
G
You'll see lots of info about the worst in schools and training in these pages. The only way to see the best is to visit a few and meet instructors, students and see the aircraft.
I stand by what I said, just trying to find the cheapest now does not necessarily mean the best or cheapest route to a PPL in the end.
I've only ever seen one £3000 PPL advertised in the UK. And I certainly don't want to put that particular outfit down as it has been debated at length in a recent thread. Suffice to to say that £3000, yes a good deal, bought you 45 hours and nothing else. You got what you paid for and the staff there told you so. Not a bad thing, just a different approach.
If you're not advertising for them, I apologise.
However,
£6000ish comes from the following:
An average student takes 55 to 65 hours to complete a PPL. Sure I saw a lot last year who got it in 45 hours. I also saw a lot who took 85 hours. In short 45 hours is a MINIMUM, nothing else.
Add to that books, navigation equipment, you're own decent headset if you feel the need, exam fees and test fees where applied, medical, away landing fees, accomodation if you going away for intensive training......................
You may choose better, newer or bigger aircraft to fly. You may choose to learn at a busy airfield with landing fees and holding times, getting less done each hour but wanting to get used to busy airspace and feeling the need to get your R/T sorted quickly.
If you opt for a £3000 PPL in the States, you still need the flights there, equipment, you may not complete the course in the time and I've never met anyone who didn't feel THEMSELVES they they needed and extra 3-10 hours after a US course to get used to flying in the UK.
If someone new to flying wants to know whats involved then lets at least be honest. Theres more space to give them all the info here than there is in a small advert with an eye-grabbing headline price.
If all this can be done for £3000, any Flying School will give you an Ops job tomorrow!!!!!!
G
You'll see lots of info about the worst in schools and training in these pages. The only way to see the best is to visit a few and meet instructors, students and see the aircraft.
I stand by what I said, just trying to find the cheapest now does not necessarily mean the best or cheapest route to a PPL in the end.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: Smurph Castle
To return to trial lessons...
I was in a similar situation this time last year, I'd read the training and navigation books and was completely convinced I wanted a PPL and wasn't really sure I should bother with the trial lesson, since the first 'official' PPL lesson basically covers the same ground, only more thoroughly. I turned out to be right - I didn't enjoy the experience particularly because there was very little flying really (also because of a grumpy instructor who obviously wanted to be elsewhere) and didn't feel I really learned anything at all.
When I went on to the first lesson proper the difference was so astoundingly different. The briefing was in real depth, and very interesting, despite being similar to what I'd read. Throughout the flight the instructor (different one) drew it all together in a way that a book can't, explained everything and was really friendly.
Surely if you explain what kind of a student you're likely to be, the instructor (if not the club) will tailor it to your needs?
I was in a similar situation this time last year, I'd read the training and navigation books and was completely convinced I wanted a PPL and wasn't really sure I should bother with the trial lesson, since the first 'official' PPL lesson basically covers the same ground, only more thoroughly. I turned out to be right - I didn't enjoy the experience particularly because there was very little flying really (also because of a grumpy instructor who obviously wanted to be elsewhere) and didn't feel I really learned anything at all.
When I went on to the first lesson proper the difference was so astoundingly different. The briefing was in real depth, and very interesting, despite being similar to what I'd read. Throughout the flight the instructor (different one) drew it all together in a way that a book can't, explained everything and was really friendly.
Surely if you explain what kind of a student you're likely to be, the instructor (if not the club) will tailor it to your needs?
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: formerly Sarf Lunden, now in Minne*snow*ta
To be honest I've only seen about one or two ads for PPLs in the region of £3000. although they usually put in the small print that landing fees are not included in the cost.
I had a trial lesson even though I had done some flying before, but the trial lesson was a christmas pressie from the rest of my family.
I wasn't going to pass over the chance of having my first hour of a lesson paid for me
I had a trial lesson even though I had done some flying before, but the trial lesson was a christmas pressie from the rest of my family.
I wasn't going to pass over the chance of having my first hour of a lesson paid for me
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
From: uk
A lot of people have offered helpful advice through this thread and I would like to reiterate some of it. I am a flying instructor but am not going to say where as I don't want to be accused of advertising
mr/ms conaty - Choose your school carefully and your instructor even more carefully.
I would be ashamed of anyone at our place who was grumpy and unhelpful to a customer who "just" came for a trial lesson. Any instructor should treat you as someone special - a trial lesson is often a real highspot for someone who may not be able to afford to do any more flying. Unless you say that you just want a jolly, you should get a proper pre-flight brief on the effects of the controls and then, when airborne, have a chance to see them demonstrated and try them all for yourself. When I get people who are dead keen but can't afford to go on, I encourage them to come up to the airfield at weekends and chat to our members, read our magazines etc. I have no interest in "snaring students" as I have more than enough work and we have plenty of students and hirers precisely because we treat people properly.
In an earlier thread, someone suggested using the trial lesson as a way of evaluating a school's and an instructor's attitude to potential students - and I know that some of our recently joined students have tried two or three schools in just that way. They found it helped them to decide.
Good luck wherever you decide to learn.
ps I'm glad I don't have to work at this mythical school where they can do the whole licence for £3K - presumably the instructors there are working for free ! We are comparatively cheap for the south-east but I always tell prospective students that they are likely to spend about £5000 and they shouldn't believe any school who tries to tell them differently.
mr/ms conaty - Choose your school carefully and your instructor even more carefully.
I would be ashamed of anyone at our place who was grumpy and unhelpful to a customer who "just" came for a trial lesson. Any instructor should treat you as someone special - a trial lesson is often a real highspot for someone who may not be able to afford to do any more flying. Unless you say that you just want a jolly, you should get a proper pre-flight brief on the effects of the controls and then, when airborne, have a chance to see them demonstrated and try them all for yourself. When I get people who are dead keen but can't afford to go on, I encourage them to come up to the airfield at weekends and chat to our members, read our magazines etc. I have no interest in "snaring students" as I have more than enough work and we have plenty of students and hirers precisely because we treat people properly.
In an earlier thread, someone suggested using the trial lesson as a way of evaluating a school's and an instructor's attitude to potential students - and I know that some of our recently joined students have tried two or three schools in just that way. They found it helped them to decide.
Good luck wherever you decide to learn.
ps I'm glad I don't have to work at this mythical school where they can do the whole licence for £3K - presumably the instructors there are working for free ! We are comparatively cheap for the south-east but I always tell prospective students that they are likely to spend about £5000 and they shouldn't believe any school who tries to tell them differently.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: UK
Penguina
Sorry to hear about your bad experience.
What you received on the first "proper" lesson should have been the same as the Trial lesson - all comes down to the Instructor!
I hope you mentioned your bad experience to the CFI - some other poor sod may give it all up over that.
What you received on the first "proper" lesson should have been the same as the Trial lesson - all comes down to the Instructor!
I hope you mentioned your bad experience to the CFI - some other poor sod may give it all up over that.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 0
From: Glen Prosen, Scotland
g-conaty, to go back to your original post, if you have already decided that this is the school you want to learn at and you are sure you want to learn to fly then there is no reason that your first flight should not be your first lesson i.e. effects of controls 1.
It may be the case that this school recommends that you take a trial lesson but it should not insist. It will not reduce the amount of time to first solo - on the contrary if it is not a productive lesson it will increase it.
If you haven't made the final decision about which school to use, my advice to you is to use the nearest one to your home (unless you really don't like it). That way the inevitable cancellations for weather, aircraft u/s etc. will be less of a hassle then if you'd driven 50 miles just to get there.
The fact that you have studied the Thom books in advance does not mean you will have to do less work than other students, it merely means you will get more from the lessons.
Good luck.
It may be the case that this school recommends that you take a trial lesson but it should not insist. It will not reduce the amount of time to first solo - on the contrary if it is not a productive lesson it will increase it.
If you haven't made the final decision about which school to use, my advice to you is to use the nearest one to your home (unless you really don't like it). That way the inevitable cancellations for weather, aircraft u/s etc. will be less of a hassle then if you'd driven 50 miles just to get there.
The fact that you have studied the Thom books in advance does not mean you will have to do less work than other students, it merely means you will get more from the lessons.
Good luck.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: Shoreham West Sussex
Only one poster here has realised and made the point that a PPL for £3000 means no pay for the instructor. This thought lies uncomfortably with other threads on this forum relating to work for instructors and whether they can make a living.
The facts of life are that you get what you pay for. if someone is so desperate to fly that they will do it without pay then you must question their motives, particularly if htey have paid upwards of £50,000 to qualify. Does noone have any self-esteem these days?Surely the idea is to improve conditions for instructors. To do this their status and ability needs to be valued so that they are seen to be deserving of adequate remuneration.
In reality PPL instruction in this country is far too cheap, because the margins are too tight for the schools to make a proper profit and when they feel the pinch the first thing they cut is instructor pay. I have been in instructing for ten years and the basic pay has not increased at all, if anything it is less overall. Can this really be right? As other poster have pointed out JAR was supposed to improve conditions for instructors but unless the uneven playing field is levelled, there will continue to be the ridiculourly cheap offers out there undermining the realistic.
Come on chaps it's about time we united to make the industry realise that they have to pay a proper living wage for instructors and to show the schools that they will simply have to charge more. After all whoever heard of a plumber or a car mechanic who charged less than £45 an hour?
The facts of life are that you get what you pay for. if someone is so desperate to fly that they will do it without pay then you must question their motives, particularly if htey have paid upwards of £50,000 to qualify. Does noone have any self-esteem these days?Surely the idea is to improve conditions for instructors. To do this their status and ability needs to be valued so that they are seen to be deserving of adequate remuneration.
In reality PPL instruction in this country is far too cheap, because the margins are too tight for the schools to make a proper profit and when they feel the pinch the first thing they cut is instructor pay. I have been in instructing for ten years and the basic pay has not increased at all, if anything it is less overall. Can this really be right? As other poster have pointed out JAR was supposed to improve conditions for instructors but unless the uneven playing field is levelled, there will continue to be the ridiculourly cheap offers out there undermining the realistic.
Come on chaps it's about time we united to make the industry realise that they have to pay a proper living wage for instructors and to show the schools that they will simply have to charge more. After all whoever heard of a plumber or a car mechanic who charged less than £45 an hour?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
Question:
when doing these so-called trial flights, does the "customer" sit in the left or right seat? and does he have his medical? without a medical and being "officially" a student he may not sit in the left seat and is not allowed to put it in his log book!! it is then just a fun flight to get the feeling of it!
or is it allowed in JAR-FCL country? we have not put JAR-FCL into law here in Germany, yet, and I would appreciate any experience with it anyone can give...perhaps per e-mail.....or should a new thread be started?
as said before, reading all the books before hand will not necessarily make the first solo come sooner or reduce the time you need, that depends on a lot of other factors...it may only make future learning for easier...
keep flying!
WestWind1950
when doing these so-called trial flights, does the "customer" sit in the left or right seat? and does he have his medical? without a medical and being "officially" a student he may not sit in the left seat and is not allowed to put it in his log book!! it is then just a fun flight to get the feeling of it!
or is it allowed in JAR-FCL country?
we have not put JAR-FCL into law here in Germany, yet, and I would appreciate any experience with it anyone can give...perhaps per e-mail.....or should a new thread be started? as said before, reading all the books before hand will not necessarily make the first solo come sooner or reduce the time you need, that depends on a lot of other factors...it may only make future learning for easier...
keep flying!
WestWind1950
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
without a medical ... he may not sit in the left seat and is not allowed to put it in his log book!!
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
From: Dorset, UK
WestWind1950
In the UK, on trial flights "the customer" usually sits in the left-hand seat. Instructors have been trained to fly light aircraft from either seat. Training aircraft have full dual controls.
A medical is not actually required until such time as a student goes solo for the first time. Reputable flying schools, usually suggest that a student goes for his first medical, as soon as he has definitely decided that he wants to train for a PPL. This avoids a sudent spending a lot of money before discovering that he cannot get a medical.
So to sum up, on a trial lesson:-
- The "customer" will usually sit in the left hand seat
- The "customer" is a "student pilot" under CAA/JAA regulations
- A medical is not required
- The trial lesson can be entered in the student's log book as PUT (Pilot under training) & signed by the instructor
- This flight will count as part of the minimum hours required for a JAA PPL
The above was the situation in the UK, both before & after the arrival of JAR.
In the UK, on trial flights "the customer" usually sits in the left-hand seat. Instructors have been trained to fly light aircraft from either seat. Training aircraft have full dual controls.
A medical is not actually required until such time as a student goes solo for the first time. Reputable flying schools, usually suggest that a student goes for his first medical, as soon as he has definitely decided that he wants to train for a PPL. This avoids a sudent spending a lot of money before discovering that he cannot get a medical.
So to sum up, on a trial lesson:-
- The "customer" will usually sit in the left hand seat
- The "customer" is a "student pilot" under CAA/JAA regulations
- A medical is not required
- The trial lesson can be entered in the student's log book as PUT (Pilot under training) & signed by the instructor
- This flight will count as part of the minimum hours required for a JAA PPL
The above was the situation in the UK, both before & after the arrival of JAR.