How bad was this landing?
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Might depend on your approach profile as well. Trimmed for optimal forces during the flare may be the very close to the trimming required on a shallow (IFR-like) approach. But if I deploy landing flaps and cut the throttle only when I am sure I reach the threshold, then I must "dive" to the runway and that requires significant forward pressure till round-out. I won't trim this out, otherwise I will have to pull hard on during the flare.
I had this topic discussed with one of my instructors. He advised me to keep pushing the stick during the last part of the approach, because it's a relatively short part of a VFR approach, and the light forces after round-out are more important. However he mentioned that tow planes have a much longer steep descents, and they have to trim their elevator to that. Which addmittedly requires a great deal of struggle with controls during and after the round-out.
I had this topic discussed with one of my instructors. He advised me to keep pushing the stick during the last part of the approach, because it's a relatively short part of a VFR approach, and the light forces after round-out are more important. However he mentioned that tow planes have a much longer steep descents, and they have to trim their elevator to that. Which addmittedly requires a great deal of struggle with controls during and after the round-out.
Trim for a stable approach, then leave the trim alone. You should be landing with positive back pressure.
The earlier post citing full nose-up trim on a Super Cub on floats. This reduces the effect of the elevator at full travel.
The earlier post citing full nose-up trim on a Super Cub on floats. This reduces the effect of the elevator at full travel.
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Flying Mac
Explain rather than just making statements why the landing part should be out of trim ? How much back pressure do you want ? Is this not part of the reason that some land flat ?
I taught a Seneca pilot to premeditate the trim changes from approach trim and to taking a bit more nose up trim in the transition phase and it sorted his heavy control problems. Obviously the Seneca has a stabilator rather than an elevator.
Why? For what logical reason do you promote landing with an out of trim aircraft ? I can understand from a instructors viewpoint with low time students you need the student to be on a stable approach with as little to do especially in the last phase of the flight where there is room for error but I don't understand later on why you should want an out of trim aircraft when there is no need ?
Pace
Explain rather than just making statements why the landing part should be out of trim ? How much back pressure do you want ? Is this not part of the reason that some land flat ?
I taught a Seneca pilot to premeditate the trim changes from approach trim and to taking a bit more nose up trim in the transition phase and it sorted his heavy control problems. Obviously the Seneca has a stabilator rather than an elevator.
Why? For what logical reason do you promote landing with an out of trim aircraft ? I can understand from a instructors viewpoint with low time students you need the student to be on a stable approach with as little to do especially in the last phase of the flight where there is room for error but I don't understand later on why you should want an out of trim aircraft when there is no need ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th Aug 2015 at 10:04.
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should be trimmed so that positive back pressure is required for speed reduction
We DO NOT trim an aircraft full nose up for the flare, apply the required back pressure to raise the nose - two reasons:
If you have foolishly trimmed full nose up, and then choose to go around, you have a wrong handful, and added task of lots of untrimming to safely climb away. Secondly, you want to feel the backforce changes in the controls as you flare! It is that force which indicates your flare, which is the approach to a stall - you feel that!
In floatplanes, we maintain the required pitch attitude by correct application of pitch control - which will require force applied to the controls. We do this because the pilot flies the plane, the plane does not fly the pilot, - particularly in a floatplane! Floatplane pilots are proud to have and use pilot muscles!
Do not retract flaps during the approach unless you're doing so as a part of applying power to go around.
Add power during a normal approach to displace your desired touchdown point [to the runway] otherwise there should be no need for the use of power to affect the aircraft handling, trim, nor control forces during a normal landing. There is no reason to not make power off approaches "normal" and the use of power only to assure that you arrive at the desired touchdown point. This may not be easy to achieve, but is worth the effort in skills development.
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We DO NOT trim an aircraft full nose up for the flare, apply the required back pressure to raise the nose - two reasons:
If you have foolishly trimmed full nose up, and then choose to go around, you have a wrong handful, and added task of lots of untrimming to safely climb away. Secondly, you want to feel the backforce changes in the controls as you flare! It is that force which indicates your flare, which is the approach to a stall - you feel that!
If you have foolishly trimmed full nose up, and then choose to go around, you have a wrong handful, and added task of lots of untrimming to safely climb away. Secondly, you want to feel the backforce changes in the controls as you flare! It is that force which indicates your flare, which is the approach to a stall - you feel that!
Some interpretations of what is being said are unbelievable who has suggested trimming full nose up? If you did that the aircraft would not be trimmed
I have suggested that a pilot before changing the configuration from the descent profile to a landing profile Slightly trims towards the neutral landing configuration
by adding a touch of back trim in the final area of the approach sector. and you will not get back force changes in an aircraft which is correctly trimmed ?
Then I get these wild and ludicrous statements?
Pace
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When flying a PBY I never ever trimmed it after trimming for the final approach.
Anyone who thinks a light airplane either single or twin engine needs a lot of back pressure in the flare/hold off when landing should try the PBY.
It can require about fifty to one hundred pounds of back pressure in some cases.
On take off on the water the back pressure to get on the step is at least one hundred pounds of pull.
Anyone who thinks a light airplane either single or twin engine needs a lot of back pressure in the flare/hold off when landing should try the PBY.
It can require about fifty to one hundred pounds of back pressure in some cases.
On take off on the water the back pressure to get on the step is at least one hundred pounds of pull.
