IMC test passed on S/E not valid on M/E?
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IMC test passed on S/E not valid on M/E?
I am following up a comment in the Wanabees forum, as it seems more appropriate here.
A Prunner wrote:
"The IMC rating now has to be renewed on a Twin if it is to be valid on a Twin"
I understood that previously an IMC test on a S/E was valid for a M/E, even though IMHO, this seemed most illogical & out of line with the rules for the IR.
I have read the CAA GID No 15, & I cannot see any reference, that answers my question. It does state that if the revalidation test is on a M/E aircraft, then it must include the section on Flight with Asymmetirc Power (which seems logical)
As this may affect a lot of PPLs, can anyone give us the definitive answer, please?
PS: Since gaining my M/E rating, I have done the IMC renewals on a twin, 'cos its easier with full Airways avionics & an HSI
.... & 'cos it is far too scary flying singles in IMC
A Prunner wrote:
"The IMC rating now has to be renewed on a Twin if it is to be valid on a Twin"
I understood that previously an IMC test on a S/E was valid for a M/E, even though IMHO, this seemed most illogical & out of line with the rules for the IR.
I have read the CAA GID No 15, & I cannot see any reference, that answers my question. It does state that if the revalidation test is on a M/E aircraft, then it must include the section on Flight with Asymmetirc Power (which seems logical)
As this may affect a lot of PPLs, can anyone give us the definitive answer, please?
PS: Since gaining my M/E rating, I have done the IMC renewals on a twin, 'cos its easier with full Airways avionics & an HSI
.... & 'cos it is far too scary flying singles in IMC
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IMC renewal
My understanding having read it (but can't quote the relevant publication and paragraph) is that an IMC test to be used on a MEL needs to be done on an MEL at initial (or first renewal prior to using the rating in a MEL). Thereafter the renewal can be completed on an SEL.
So if at any stage you have done an IMC test or IMCX renewal test on ME you can use the IMC on a ME even if later renewals have been done SE.
Is there a logic?.
The multi renewal (12 months) now requires extensive evidence of asymetric handling so I guess this demonstrates ability in handling the a/c even in IMC conditions?.
So if at any stage you have done an IMC test or IMCX renewal test on ME you can use the IMC on a ME even if later renewals have been done SE.
Is there a logic?.
The multi renewal (12 months) now requires extensive evidence of asymetric handling so I guess this demonstrates ability in handling the a/c even in IMC conditions?.
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An IMC rating is valid in whatever class of aeroplane you happen to be flying. The initial and revalidations can be done in either a single or a twin. Whilst this isn't spelt out loud and clear, there is nothing that disagrees with these statements in the governing documents. Chapter and verse is in CAP53 or, now, LASORS.
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formationfoto Thanks for the reply, & yes, your thinking seems very logical. But, hey, we are talking about CCA regulations here, so where does logic come into it? 
Perhaps there is some sad person out there who has read the small print of the ANO, AICs or whatever & found the relevant bit.
Mind you, now that I have actually read the CAA GID, I realise that I should already know the answer, because part of the requirements are: A detailed knowledge of the privileges of the IMC rating, its period of validity and revalidation procedure.
Perhaps there is some sad person out there who has read the small print of the ANO, AICs or whatever & found the relevant bit.
Mind you, now that I have actually read the CAA GID, I realise that I should already know the answer, because part of the requirements are: A detailed knowledge of the privileges of the IMC rating, its period of validity and revalidation procedure.
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Remember, the IMC is a National rating and therefore the IMC didn't change with the coming of JAA / JAR.
The CAA recomendation used to be to alternate the IMC renewal between ME and SE if you flew both. This incidently was also their recomendation for the IR renewal before JAA / JAR. Now, the IR has to be renewed on a ME aircraft each year (c.f. 13 months previously) to remain valid for ME.
Oddly enough, there is something in the IMC renewal that you don't have to do for the IR renewal. If you want to renew your IMC at the same time as your IR you have to make this clear to the IRE before the flight test.
The CAA recomendation used to be to alternate the IMC renewal between ME and SE if you flew both. This incidently was also their recomendation for the IR renewal before JAA / JAR. Now, the IR has to be renewed on a ME aircraft each year (c.f. 13 months previously) to remain valid for ME.
Oddly enough, there is something in the IMC renewal that you don't have to do for the IR renewal. If you want to renew your IMC at the same time as your IR you have to make this clear to the IRE before the flight test.
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QNH 1013 Thanks for the reply.
Just to clarify matters, are you saying that the rules have not changed, & that a test on a S/E is still valid for flying in IMC on a M/E?
You also say: "Oddly enough, there is something in the IMC renewal that you don't have to do for the IR renewal". Would that be, recovery from unusual attitudes, or is that included in the IR?
Just to clarify matters, are you saying that the rules have not changed, & that a test on a S/E is still valid for flying in IMC on a M/E?
You also say: "Oddly enough, there is something in the IMC renewal that you don't have to do for the IR renewal". Would that be, recovery from unusual attitudes, or is that included in the IR?
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DB, Well not exactly. I'm saying that the IMC rules didn't change when JARs were introduced, and as far as I know they haven't changed since, but I could have missed something. I certainly haven't seen an AIC about any changes.
On the second point, yes I think it was recovery from unusual attitudes that is in the IMC renewal but not in the IR renewal. The IR renewal format did change with the comming of JARs.
Recovery from unusual attitudes and incipient stalls in all sorts of configurations is examined in the IR initial flight test which of course is done by a CAA examiner (at enormous expense).
On the second point, yes I think it was recovery from unusual attitudes that is in the IMC renewal but not in the IR renewal. The IR renewal format did change with the comming of JARs.
Recovery from unusual attitudes and incipient stalls in all sorts of configurations is examined in the IR initial flight test which of course is done by a CAA examiner (at enormous expense).
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JARs, AICs and GIDS do not change the Law. The IMC rating, as already stated, is valid on any Class or Type of aeroplane you are rated to fly.
If you revalidate on a ME aeroplane the test includes asymmetric however, if you revalidate on a SE aeroplane there is nothing in the law (ANO) that prevents you flying a ME aeroplane in IMC. If you do regularly fly a ME aeroplane then common sense says you should consider revalidating on a ME from time to time, after all it can be combined with the mandatory aircraft rating revalidation test.
If you revalidate on a ME aeroplane the test includes asymmetric however, if you revalidate on a SE aeroplane there is nothing in the law (ANO) that prevents you flying a ME aeroplane in IMC. If you do regularly fly a ME aeroplane then common sense says you should consider revalidating on a ME from time to time, after all it can be combined with the mandatory aircraft rating revalidation test.
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Noggin...
....a slight diversion from the thread - but it is instruments!! - people do not believe that it is advisable to do the I/R before the CPL. Can you reprint what you said in an earlier post about the 10 hours credit - and, if possible, give me a reference for a hard copy of it (I'm assuming its in LASORS - but haven't yet got to a copy to read it properly).
E-mail if you prefer. [email protected]
....a slight diversion from the thread - but it is instruments!! - people do not believe that it is advisable to do the I/R before the CPL. Can you reprint what you said in an earlier post about the 10 hours credit - and, if possible, give me a reference for a hard copy of it (I'm assuming its in LASORS - but haven't yet got to a copy to read it properly).
E-mail if you prefer. [email protected]
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Noggin Thanks for the reply.
You have confirmed what I thought the rules were, before someone seemed to have said that they had changed.
I also strongly agree with your advice, about doing the revalidation tests on a M/E.
If the weather is slightly marginal, I will sometimes fly a twin, when I would not get airborne in a single. Hence I more likely to get into IMC in the twin. So, it seems only prudent to do the IMC tests on a twin, as I have done.
You have confirmed what I thought the rules were, before someone seemed to have said that they had changed.
I also strongly agree with your advice, about doing the revalidation tests on a M/E.
If the weather is slightly marginal, I will sometimes fly a twin, when I would not get airborne in a single. Hence I more likely to get into IMC in the twin. So, it seems only prudent to do the IMC tests on a twin, as I have done.
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Apologies if I misled anyone.
My comment was based on my experience when I needed to undertake an IMC renewall a couple of years back.
There were no twin rated IMC examiners available at the airfield I wanted to continue using, most had decided to give up their rating due to the JAR regs, even though JAR doesn't cover the IMC rating.
It was not suggested that I could do it on a single and still be valid on a twin, although that is what I did at times in the distant past.
My comment was based on my experience when I needed to undertake an IMC renewall a couple of years back.
There were no twin rated IMC examiners available at the airfield I wanted to continue using, most had decided to give up their rating due to the JAR regs, even though JAR doesn't cover the IMC rating.
It was not suggested that I could do it on a single and still be valid on a twin, although that is what I did at times in the distant past.
