Cambridge "Airspace"
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 530
Likes: 0
From: Island of Aphrodite
SoaringHigh,
Unfortunately there is a difference between the US Class D airspace and the UK's. In the States it is very much like the UK Radio Mandatory Zone (RMZ). You call the controller, make contact and tell him what you are doing. In the UK Class D is controlled airspace and you have to have positive clearance to enter.
Unfortunately there is a difference between the US Class D airspace and the UK's. In the States it is very much like the UK Radio Mandatory Zone (RMZ). You call the controller, make contact and tell him what you are doing. In the UK Class D is controlled airspace and you have to have positive clearance to enter.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 393
Likes: 94
From: UK
I've almost given up asking for a clearance through Class D airspace
Seems, with some units, even one aircraft makes them too busy to issue a clearance - so I just plan to avoid - more time and more miles and therefore, more money in the planning but, these days, it's always a lot less than the actual reality of holding etc etc waiting for the aircraft on a 4-8 mile final to land before you get to move .... can't be too careful !
I do a lot of hours - this is the norm. in the UK.
Seems, with some units, even one aircraft makes them too busy to issue a clearance - so I just plan to avoid - more time and more miles and therefore, more money in the planning but, these days, it's always a lot less than the actual reality of holding etc etc waiting for the aircraft on a 4-8 mile final to land before you get to move .... can't be too careful !
I do a lot of hours - this is the norm. in the UK.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 845
From: Tring, UK
I think some of the problem is the complex low level airspace we have in the UK, mixed in with the proximity of many airfields to each other.
If you plot instrument approaches, circuit patterns, holds, extended centrelines, etc. on a map of SE England, it becomes clear that if you fly a route from A-->B, it is virtually impossible not to cross somebody’s patch without weaving left, right, up and down like an inebriated insect.
Add in that you need about five radio boxes if you want to keep in contact with nearby airfields who might have traffic information. It’s little wonder that many don’t bother at all and rely on see-and-avoid in accordance with the Rules of the Air, ACAS, FLARM, etc. It is class G, after all, and just because you’re talking to ATC doesn’t give you a magic +3 Envelope of Protection...
If you plot instrument approaches, circuit patterns, holds, extended centrelines, etc. on a map of SE England, it becomes clear that if you fly a route from A-->B, it is virtually impossible not to cross somebody’s patch without weaving left, right, up and down like an inebriated insect.
Add in that you need about five radio boxes if you want to keep in contact with nearby airfields who might have traffic information. It’s little wonder that many don’t bother at all and rely on see-and-avoid in accordance with the Rules of the Air, ACAS, FLARM, etc. It is class G, after all, and just because you’re talking to ATC doesn’t give you a magic +3 Envelope of Protection...
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
I've almost given up asking for a clearance through Class D airspace
I can't remember the last time I was refused a D transit, and when I flight plan I draw a straight line on the map and only adjust it for Class A (if I am going somewhere).
Only the other day I went across Bristol and back again later. However first time was 6000' and the second time was FL70. In fact on the way back from N wales, I called London info (as there was no one else to talk to) and in my initial call told them I was crossing Bristol airspace. London gave me a Bristol code and already informed Bristol. When I got closer I called BRS, and got the transit no worries.
My tip is fly as high as you can then when you call them:
Who you are: I am a TB20 from A to B VFR
Where you are: FL60 20 miles south of Brisol
What you want: Request traffic service and transit your CAS from Wells mast via the overhead FL60.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
From: Wales
Class D is not the end of the world for GA, especially in the Manchester and Liverpool zones. I have had some very pleasant transits of both zones, whilst listening to the A380, B787 traffic.
What made my day a few years ago, was when Manchester approved an orbit of Joderal Bank but at not more than 700 ft.
Also the transits of Liverpool Pier Head and Container Port at 1000ft are well worth it.
Just recently one member of our C172 group over-flew the three Queens in Liverpool Dock, followed by an overhead of Hawarden where the Red-arrows were all lined up on the Taxiway... Was that just good luck or good management...
What made my day a few years ago, was when Manchester approved an orbit of Joderal Bank but at not more than 700 ft.
Also the transits of Liverpool Pier Head and Container Port at 1000ft are well worth it.
Just recently one member of our C172 group over-flew the three Queens in Liverpool Dock, followed by an overhead of Hawarden where the Red-arrows were all lined up on the Taxiway... Was that just good luck or good management...
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 13th June 2015 at 12:48. Reason: Posted Picture
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
"Join right downwind runway 23, not below 2,000' over the city, we have an IFR departure."
"Unable to comply due cloud base."
By the time the airliner was actually ready to roll I was in the normal place on a left downwind, having crossed the climb-out tens of seconds earlier.
Puzzling thing is that I'm surprised ATC didn't know where the cloud base was. (I could have accepted a climb into cloud and an ILS, but I didn't want to.)
"Unable to comply due cloud base."
By the time the airliner was actually ready to roll I was in the normal place on a left downwind, having crossed the climb-out tens of seconds earlier.
Puzzling thing is that I'm surprised ATC didn't know where the cloud base was. (I could have accepted a climb into cloud and an ILS, but I didn't want to.)
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
I think that was supposed to achieve my not flying through the climb-out and thereby getting in the way of the departing IFR traffic (I was doing an anti-clockwise orbit of the city so my passenger could do some sightseeing).
But as it happened the IFR traffic was sitting on the runway writing down clearances and stuff for at least another minute and a half, so there wasn't a conflict.
But as it happened the IFR traffic was sitting on the runway writing down clearances and stuff for at least another minute and a half, so there wasn't a conflict.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 519
Likes: 16
From: Luton
Asking for a clearance into Class D airspace may not be a big issue for aeroplanes, but in a glider without a transponder the probability of an entry clearance is negligible. Class D airspace is a significant obstacle for gliders.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
From: USA
the probability of an entry clearance is negligible. Class D airspace is a significant obstacle for gliders.
I'm doubtful that the solution to the problem is to keep it Class G or E so that people can continue gliding undetected and directly into the path of IFR traffic.....
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
I think a glider operating no transponder, not maintaining an altitude, unlikely to maintain a heading or location, potentially in and out of cloud, and presenting an intermittent primary target is a difficult thing to either call as traffic (if it is VFR) or provide separation against (if it is IFR). Moreover, UK ATC seem to have an imposed requirement to provide sufficient separation between IFR and VFR (in all airspaces - CDFG) to avoid a TCAS TA or a commercial crew seeing an aircraft separated from them by less than IFR vs IFR minimums.
These two issues probably explain why UK glider pilots feel UK ATC is unlikely to clear them into Class D airspace. (In that the glider pilots are probably correct, and ATC's approach is probably reasonable, given the rules they are held to)
These two issues probably explain why UK glider pilots feel UK ATC is unlikely to clear them into Class D airspace. (In that the glider pilots are probably correct, and ATC's approach is probably reasonable, given the rules they are held to)
