PPR, What's the deal?
You may have a point there - I have never been in UK airspace. We certainly have no dayglow vest nonsense here - at the contrary, the last time some foreigners landed and almost religiously put on the fluo things to walk into the bar, all present made very very stiff faces, to cover internal laughter.
Round here, I do have flown to PPR fields without calling before, and never got into trouble - but then
-) I had to be ready for a refusal over the radio
-) I had to be ready for a diagonal cross in the signal square which would have equally precluded my landing. Most fields accepting NORDO planes, the signal square is - again! - the a/d operator's ultimate measure if something goes wrong. On one or two occasions, when our runway was blocked by some kind of incident, changing the signal square was one of the earliest actions taken, after of course the primary care of the incident itself.
Round here, I do have flown to PPR fields without calling before, and never got into trouble - but then
-) I had to be ready for a refusal over the radio
-) I had to be ready for a diagonal cross in the signal square which would have equally precluded my landing. Most fields accepting NORDO planes, the signal square is - again! - the a/d operator's ultimate measure if something goes wrong. On one or two occasions, when our runway was blocked by some kind of incident, changing the signal square was one of the earliest actions taken, after of course the primary care of the incident itself.
When in Rome do as the Romans....with most people having a mobile (ahem "cell") phone these days I really don't see what the big issue is.
I'd rather give an airfield a quick phone call first and get the heads up on anything special and, as has been stated previously, when I call them on the radio they already have my details.
I'd rather give an airfield a quick phone call first and get the heads up on anything special and, as has been stated previously, when I call them on the radio they already have my details.
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No-one has convinced me of this need for PPR yet. I understand for private, military or those with unique challenges, but in general. Different cultures I guess
I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.
I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.
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Blackpool is a complete nonsense these days and I can only assume it is actively trying to dissuade GA. Not only do you now require PPR even if you are a Blackpool based aircraft (why?!), but ATC seem to be operating some sort of slot system. I recently called to book out and was told I would have to wait 40 minutes because they were only meant to handle 4 movements an hour. I've flown extensively around the rest of the UK, France and the USA and this contrasts extremely unfavourably with nearly every other airport (although Oban has come close in the past) I have visited.
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Well I believe that Adam has hit the nail on the head with this and that the overall effect of these arcane practices is simply to restrict the hours that pilots fly. As he says, it makes flying much more dangerous in addition to the inconvenience factor.
But here in Europe we live in an environment where private aviation is regarded as a public nuisance and where the 'authorities' would happily dispense with us altogether if they could. That they don't is a continuing miracle and one that we have to go along with if we want to continue flying. So I for one go along with the stupid rigmarole of PPR, booking out, VFR FPL's, GAR's, airports closed when unattended and the hundred other things that make private flying in Europe an inconvenient mode of transport.
Having spent almost 50 Hrs VFR flying in the US this month without ever once needing 'permission' to do anything at all I do have a right to a point of view on this!
But here in Europe we live in an environment where private aviation is regarded as a public nuisance and where the 'authorities' would happily dispense with us altogether if they could. That they don't is a continuing miracle and one that we have to go along with if we want to continue flying. So I for one go along with the stupid rigmarole of PPR, booking out, VFR FPL's, GAR's, airports closed when unattended and the hundred other things that make private flying in Europe an inconvenient mode of transport.
Having spent almost 50 Hrs VFR flying in the US this month without ever once needing 'permission' to do anything at all I do have a right to a point of view on this!
I suggest all people with that kind of arguments spend the rest of their flying days in Patagonia or Inner Mongolia or such. How quiet they will be! How happy their unimpeded flying!
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For those aerodromes which reside on privately owned property, it is the right of that property owner to specify PPR if they wish. In some cases, it may be that they own the runway for purposes of their own interest, rather than altruistic service to private pilots. Sure, it's very nice that a property owner would allow "free" use of their property/runway, but they are not obliged.
Their specifying PPR might be for insurance reasons - they may not feel protected against liability resulting from the use of the runway, so would rather vet who might use it.
The last person I actually invited to land on my runway crashed on it. It had nothing to do with the runway, he was just an inexperienced pilot. That was 20 years ago. The huge dead spot of grass, resulting from 60 liters of spilled avgas, and my lost day of productivity righting his plane, and then flying him home have faded. But the reality that I set myself up for a whole lot more effort, had he attempted to place liability upon me, stays with me. No one gets invited to land here. When they do, and they leave ruts in the soft ground in the spring, because they did not call and ask, who fixes the ruts?
For those who would like to be free of the requirement to obtain prior permission, either fly from and to aerodromes which do not require it, or buy your own!
Their specifying PPR might be for insurance reasons - they may not feel protected against liability resulting from the use of the runway, so would rather vet who might use it.
The last person I actually invited to land on my runway crashed on it. It had nothing to do with the runway, he was just an inexperienced pilot. That was 20 years ago. The huge dead spot of grass, resulting from 60 liters of spilled avgas, and my lost day of productivity righting his plane, and then flying him home have faded. But the reality that I set myself up for a whole lot more effort, had he attempted to place liability upon me, stays with me. No one gets invited to land here. When they do, and they leave ruts in the soft ground in the spring, because they did not call and ask, who fixes the ruts?
For those who would like to be free of the requirement to obtain prior permission, either fly from and to aerodromes which do not require it, or buy your own!
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I also remember after a recent tragic event the owner/operator of Popham saying on this forum that they would never turn away an aircraft which needed to land, irrespective of PPR status and irrespective of whether the airfield was open or closed at the time.
One winter's day in (I think) 1985, an unforecasted snowstorm over southern england caught out a LOT of folks. One of the club cherokees got trapped in the weather to the west of London, called for help and at one point the controllers were seriously considering bringing it into EGLL - IIRC it made it safely into White Waltham.
If you are in difficulties, do whatever you need to do and if necessary argue the toss afterwards when you are safely on the ground. Do not let any fear of reprisals or prosecution prevent you from doing whatever you have to do to ensure the successful outcome of your flight.
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Very good points, Sillert VI, very well made. But that last paragraph says everything you need to know about private flying in UK and in parts of Europe!
It's my view that one reason for our low retention of newly qualified PPL's is the high probability of receiving a public bawling out for this or that infraction, after which the poor soul never flies again.
And by the way, I'm not talking about privately owned grass strips in this context, but hard surface ex WW2 airfields that have no business knowing who you are, where you are going or making up arcane rules for the use of their property under the umbrella of insurance, planning permission or other excuse.
It's my view that one reason for our low retention of newly qualified PPL's is the high probability of receiving a public bawling out for this or that infraction, after which the poor soul never flies again.
And by the way, I'm not talking about privately owned grass strips in this context, but hard surface ex WW2 airfields that have no business knowing who you are, where you are going or making up arcane rules for the use of their property under the umbrella of insurance, planning permission or other excuse.
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PPR argument aside, if you are flying and something goes horribly wrong I'd like to think you can land regardless. My (mil) airfield naturally has strict PPR requirements, but if you have an emergency the seas are parted and you can land, and we won't charge you either!
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Step turn,
Here in UK there is also something called the 28 day rule (planning regulations). Landing without the owner's permission could cause him/her to be at risk of prosecution in law.
Here in UK there is also something called the 28 day rule (planning regulations). Landing without the owner's permission could cause him/her to be at risk of prosecution in law.
Originally Posted by 500ft
No-one has convinced me of this need for PPR yet. I understand for private, military or those with unique challenges, but in general. Different cultures I guess
I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.
I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.
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I know a couple of certificated airfields in NZ which require PPR, North Shore and Waiheke Island. North Shore because they don't have a lot of casual aircraft parking space available so you need to ring the Aero Club (who owns the airfield) first to make sure there is a free spot for you before you leave. Waiheke Island because you need to have a (phone) briefing from the operator regarding the specific noise abatement procedures unique to it before you venture there.
Not sure what Jan is talking about with regards to PPR. Having lived in Holland for five years and flown multiple times in and out of almost every airfield in the country, as well as a great many in Belgium, France, and Germany, the only two places that ever needed UK style PPR were Eindhoven and Rotterdam. Maybe there has been a complete change in the last three years, but I doubt it.
UK style PPR seems to be primarily a result of pointless bureaucracy and peoples need to feel important; be it airfield owners or local councils. As a Brit, it embarrasses me that it doesn't just go away.
Given the dilapidated or cramped state of many of our airfields though, I can on occasion see why the operator would want people to call ahead and be warned of the poor state of the field.
UK style PPR seems to be primarily a result of pointless bureaucracy and peoples need to feel important; be it airfield owners or local councils. As a Brit, it embarrasses me that it doesn't just go away.
Given the dilapidated or cramped state of many of our airfields though, I can on occasion see why the operator would want people to call ahead and be warned of the poor state of the field.
Reciprocally, it is not clear to me what Katamarino means with "UK style PPR" 
PPR as I know it amounts to me dialling the published number, then the conversation goes something like "aerodrome EBxx - good morning, lady, I am xyz from EBZH, I intend to fly to yours, is it ok? - sure, we have runway xx in use, all clear" . Perhaps they will inquire when I estimate my arrival, or will ask my registration. Or perhaps perhaps I will be told of a soft spot in the runway or there is intense glider activity or such - only useful information. It always reassures me to confirm the circuit either LH or RH and the usual circuit altitude. Not required, but it adds to security.
Some may feel the obligation as an infringement on their personal freedom, I can appreciate that. Indeed the discussion is somewhat reminiscent of the German "Flugleiterpflicht" - the obligation to have a qualified person operating the radio at each aerodrome - and that one I do consider sheer rubbish, its main effect being increased load on the already overburdened operators of small aerodromes.
And if the mechanism is used as a means to discourage private flyers from using certain fields that is very lowly, yes; but wouldn't such practice be equally annoying to _all_ pilots flying there, or considering so?
PPR as I know it amounts to me dialling the published number, then the conversation goes something like "aerodrome EBxx - good morning, lady, I am xyz from EBZH, I intend to fly to yours, is it ok? - sure, we have runway xx in use, all clear" . Perhaps they will inquire when I estimate my arrival, or will ask my registration. Or perhaps perhaps I will be told of a soft spot in the runway or there is intense glider activity or such - only useful information. It always reassures me to confirm the circuit either LH or RH and the usual circuit altitude. Not required, but it adds to security.
Some may feel the obligation as an infringement on their personal freedom, I can appreciate that. Indeed the discussion is somewhat reminiscent of the German "Flugleiterpflicht" - the obligation to have a qualified person operating the radio at each aerodrome - and that one I do consider sheer rubbish, its main effect being increased load on the already overburdened operators of small aerodromes.
And if the mechanism is used as a means to discourage private flyers from using certain fields that is very lowly, yes; but wouldn't such practice be equally annoying to _all_ pilots flying there, or considering so?
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Here in UK there is also something called the 28 day rule (planning regulations). Landing without the owner's permission could cause him/her to be at risk of prosecution in law.
Incidentally, Glenswinton is listed as PPR but unless they interrupt a clear round of skeet, unannounced visitors are more likely to be greeted with a cup of tea than with a Remington 870.
So if y'all are heading for the Earl of Stair's shindig on Saturday, you really have no excuse not to drop by and leave a bottle of rosé de saignée in my hangar...
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So if y'all are heading for the Earl of Stair's shindig on Saturday, you really have no excuse not to drop by and leave a bottle of rosé de saignée in my hangar...
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Breach of ordinary planning regulations is not an offence in the UK.
pb84,
I'm familiar with Iron Bru, although I must confess I've never drunk it. However, I had to look up Forfar Bridie:
You've made me quite hungry.
I'm familiar with Iron Bru, although I must confess I've never drunk it. However, I had to look up Forfar Bridie:
They are similar to pasties, but because they are made without potatoes, are much lighter in texture. Bakers in Forfar traditionally use shortcrust pastry for their bridies, but in the rest of Scotland, flaky pastry is preferred. The filling of a bridie consists of minced beef, butter, and beef suet seasoned with salt and pepper. It is sometimes made with minced onions.