Best training airplane?
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This is all very fine and jolly, but in the real world of regular touring aeroplanes there is a need to "fly the numbers" I watch people fly some of these machines and it makes me cringe. The key to most aircraft is to know the sensible power settings and speeds for each phase of flight as well as attitude. Then if you have some combination of rev counter, manifold pressure and air speed indicator and attitude indicator (which can be the picture out of windscreen) you can fly the thing accurately in take off, climb, descent and approach.
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Luke....... It's all about the money
The reason you have not seen mention of the Grob 115 is that the civil versions of the aircraft are of GRP construction and are not of spectacular performance, the O-235 powered Grob115 have much the same performance as a PA38 or C152, it is nicer to fly that the 152 but on par with the PA38 but costs more to operate.
The RAF are running a military Grob 115, this may look like a civilian 115 but it has an Aerobatic O-360 engine, VP prop and is constructed from CRP ( Carbon fibre). All of this puts the price up to a level that makes it prohibitively expensive for basic civil flying instruction.
The RAF are running a military Grob 115, this may look like a civilian 115 but it has an Aerobatic O-360 engine, VP prop and is constructed from CRP ( Carbon fibre). All of this puts the price up to a level that makes it prohibitively expensive for basic civil flying instruction.
Last edited by A and C; 25th May 2015 at 17:15.
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Yes, lancs Aero Club had a couple of G115s on the fleet and they looked good (if it looks right it flies right?), so I checked out in one. Hmmm. Dullsville. Just like a PA28. So I tried the other. It was the same!
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a couple of G115s on the fleet and they looked good (if it looks right it flies right?), so I checked out in one. Hmmm. Dullsville. Just like a PA28. So I tried the other. It was the same!
The flight training industry works well with plentiful, economical, and predictable available for their fleets. Friends and I were discussing yesterday a school who have sold off their fleet of Eastern European training aircraft in favour of North American counterparts. The Eastern European types spent so much time grounded awaiting parts. No matter how good an aircraft is in the air, if it's not in the air, it's not much good as a trainer!
Those who have mass produced an acceptable aircraft have filled a market need better than more limited production and support of an aircraft with superior flying characteristics.
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Step Turn makes a very good point, as much as I like my DR400-180 as a private aircraft and the fact that the smaller DR400 series aircraft are good trainers I would never operate them on a commercial basis as the supply of spare parts is simply not good enough to keep the aircraft serviceable.
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I'm learning in a Grob 115 out of Coventry. The school I'm at has a mixture of C152, C172, a couple of PA28s and an R2160.
I've been up in a C152 a few times but found is too cramped. I would normally expect an instructor to buy me a drink before I sit on his lap...
The Grob for me was a really good balance between cost (only £5 more p/h than the C152) and space (it has a centre console which means plenty of room). The others in the fleet are just too expensive for me.
Also, as a personal preference, I prefer low-wing aircraft.
I've been up in a C152 a few times but found is too cramped. I would normally expect an instructor to buy me a drink before I sit on his lap...
The Grob for me was a really good balance between cost (only £5 more p/h than the C152) and space (it has a centre console which means plenty of room). The others in the fleet are just too expensive for me.
Also, as a personal preference, I prefer low-wing aircraft.
Is the 152 that cramped? I re-did my long-lapsed PPL in them, and have never been so drunk I'd sit on an instructor's lap. (I'm male with 15 stone minimum achieved weight.)(Wouldn't want to squash female instructor.)
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Let me put it to you this way Maoraigh ... Mrs SkyToddler was originally my PPL student (in a C152), we started dating before her first solo, and we were married by the time she finished her PPL 
Would never have happened in a Piper Cub!
Would never have happened in a Piper Cub!
Learned to fly on the Chipmunk in the dim and distant past and eventually accrued about 400 hours on them.
While I agree about its handling, it has one major disadvantage as a primary trainer which no-one seems to have mentioned - the instructor cannot see what the student is looking at.
As a greenhorn, I initially tried to fly by concentrating on the instruments - which can be quite uncomfortable for an experienced pilot. None of my early instructors picked it up and just assumed I was not a natural. It was only when it came to instrument training that my misdirected efforts paid off. The only other area of the syllabus where I did well was aerobatics - where it was necessary to look out the window!
The AT6/Harvard had the same problem - but by then I had discovered that looking at the horizon worked
While I agree about its handling, it has one major disadvantage as a primary trainer which no-one seems to have mentioned - the instructor cannot see what the student is looking at.
As a greenhorn, I initially tried to fly by concentrating on the instruments - which can be quite uncomfortable for an experienced pilot. None of my early instructors picked it up and just assumed I was not a natural. It was only when it came to instrument training that my misdirected efforts paid off. The only other area of the syllabus where I did well was aerobatics - where it was necessary to look out the window!
The AT6/Harvard had the same problem - but by then I had discovered that looking at the horizon worked
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So what's the consensus on the best training helicopter?
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I've a few hours in a grob 115b (160bhp) and its ok, pretty benign to fly, no real vices
It if its spotless clean its quite quick, but in the summer with a few in dead flies, it seems to lose about 10-15kt!
couldn't say if its better than 152/172/pa etc as don't really have any hours on those and imagine the 115hp version will be underpowered. but think the B would make a very good learner.
It if its spotless clean its quite quick, but in the summer with a few in dead flies, it seems to lose about 10-15kt!
couldn't say if its better than 152/172/pa etc as don't really have any hours on those and imagine the 115hp version will be underpowered. but think the B would make a very good learner.
I have only flown a Grob 115 once. It was the 115 HP one. The place in Florida that had them had two of that config and one 160 hp one, which was in the shop. Seemed like a nice airplane. The one in the shop shedded its tail after it was back online, two people died, and they went back to cessna. I would disagree the higher HP airplane is the better trainer, just as a generality. A low powered trainer demands more finesse from the student and this is important.
For helicopters, I learned in an underpowered Enstrom F28A and liked it very much. Great for full autos, low powered, manual throttle. I flew a few CB300's, very nice machine, but over on rotorheads it sounds like folks are having problems getting parts. That is a shame.
For helicopters, I learned in an underpowered Enstrom F28A and liked it very much. Great for full autos, low powered, manual throttle. I flew a few CB300's, very nice machine, but over on rotorheads it sounds like folks are having problems getting parts. That is a shame.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
failure of maintenance personnel to rebalance the flight controls after the airplane had been repainted, which resulted in rudder flutter and in-flight breakup of the airplane.
failure of maintenance personnel to rebalance the flight controls after the airplane had been repainted, which resulted in rudder flutter and in-flight breakup of the airplane.
Good old Cessna C152 and then onto the C172.
Had a few lessons in a lovely immaculate Grumman AA5, at the age of 15 but the hours couldn't into the logbook. The Grumman owner organised his old instructor to take me for a lesson or two outside of his airline job.
But it would have been nice to learn in a Cub in a paddock out in the boondocks.
I know guy another that learnt to fly in his PA-34 Seneca, he employed a full time pilot, but wanted to achieve going solo in his own plane.
Had a few lessons in a lovely immaculate Grumman AA5, at the age of 15 but the hours couldn't into the logbook. The Grumman owner organised his old instructor to take me for a lesson or two outside of his airline job.
But it would have been nice to learn in a Cub in a paddock out in the boondocks.
I know guy another that learnt to fly in his PA-34 Seneca, he employed a full time pilot, but wanted to achieve going solo in his own plane.
it has one major disadvantage as a primary trainer which no-one seems to have mentioned - the instructor cannot see what the student is looking at.
There is one significant exception. Many a Chipmunk student has been caught out slyly adjusting the altimeter - "Bloggs, have you set QNH?" - not aware that the wily QFI in the back could see a reflection of his hand in the canopy!
Ask me how I know!
