GPS, A bonus or a necessity?

[foxmoth]

IFR around Glasgow and Edinburgh and there are some SIDs out for Glasgow that have waypoints that aren't on a radial from any nav aid so the only way of flying it is with a GPS.

So again, these are specific routes, your comment was a generalisation about IFR nav,and there is a lot of flying outside this that it does not apply to, even these routes, unless dedicated RNAV sids, should be possible without GPS - it may be best to advise ATC that you may be slightly off track due to this, but still possible.

[Eric T Cartman]

N Atlantic ships

@ BackPacker

Did they really moor ships across the atlantic with NDBs on it? I find that hard to believe.

Not quite moored but they were there.
Information here :

WEATHER SHIPS (BRITISH & NORTH AMERICAN)

[BackPacker]

Cool. Must've been a massive investment. Thanks.

[Above The Clouds]

Eric

Thanks for your post, you beat me to it

Backpacker
Did they really moor ships across the atlantic with NDBs on it? I find that hard to believe.

Theres your answer, in fact I didn't use GPS crossing the atlantic until after the first gulf war when the early trimble units came on to the market.

[Ultranomad]

GPS is certainly a big convenience, but BRNAV can still be flown without it. In GA, the most popular option for GPS-less RNAV is King KNS80, still installed on many old aircraft. The ATC will also treat you differently depending on what your flight plan says about your onboard equipment.

[ShyTorque]

Edited to add - even with GPS, which way would you get from S of the MAN TMA into Barton?

Unfortunately, I have seldom been successful in obtaining a clearance through Manchester's airspace and therefore have always had to route around the East / NE side, over the Pennines. Problem is, there isn't much of a gap between MSA / L795 airway / Man CTA / Leeds CTR (about a mile and a half).

You could get radar vectors, but that's not really "IFR navigation" in the strictest sense.

I was taught how to fly IFR methods of maintaining / regaining tracks using 5 & 10 degree lines from each turning point, using elapsed time and proportion of track flown methods, at RAF Jet BFTS. But that's no good when your passengers say they want to go somewhere at very short notice and you have to operate VFR/IFR/VFR, often nowhere near workable beacons (and often to a non-airfield destination), GPS wins every time. Having the benefit of an IFR GPS system fitted and got to grips with how to utilise it efficiently, I have no qualms about it and I see no reason whatsoever to hang on to outdated methods, just to prove it can still be done. As the military say, why bother to practice bleeding?

I'd rather stick pins in my eyes.

[thing]

there isn't much of a gap between MSA / L795 airway / Man CTA / Leeds CTR (about a mile and a half

L975 innit? Huddersfield International is conveniently situated right in that gap.

[foxmoth]

Having the benefit of an IFR GPS system fitted and got to grips with how to utilise it efficiently, I have no qualms

Not arguing with that at all, just saying that it CAN still be done if needed, it was the "almost impossible" that I was disagreeing with.

[stevelup]

This is becoming a pointless circular argument.

If the original statement was re-worded to say 'there are many circumstances where IFR navigation is now impossible without a GPS', would that settle the discussion?

[foxmoth]

Replace impossible with "difficult", "will become impossible", or even the original "almost impossible" (because your "many circumstances" modifies the original statement sufficiently) and I would totally agree!