Runways on runways
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Runways on runways
A question regarding runways that are marked on top of bigger and wider runways.
I was at a very friendly location yesterday, first visit. The runway is marked out very clearly on top of what is obviously a much longer and wider original runway. Being as it ws my first departure from there I like to make sure I'm doing it right, so I inwardly digested the information on the clubhouse notice board re departing. It called for a taxi down the edge of the marked runway (bags of room) to a holding point and do your engine run up there before departure. While I was there running the engine a call came from an a/c on finals asking me to clear the runway as they were on finals. My immediate thought being 'I'm not on the runway, the runway is marked out and a fair way over yonder.' I did however taxi onto the grass and cleared the actual tarmac bit. It was not a problem whatsoever, all very friendly but it set me thinking (always dangerous).
When is a runway not a runway? Think of somewhere like Fenland or Breighton where the taxiway is simply the wider bit of the runway, the runway itself being marked, much as the situation yesterday. You can't taxi off of Fenlands taxi strip because you will be in a ditch. So what is the actual definition of a runway and when are you actually on it?
I was at a very friendly location yesterday, first visit. The runway is marked out very clearly on top of what is obviously a much longer and wider original runway. Being as it ws my first departure from there I like to make sure I'm doing it right, so I inwardly digested the information on the clubhouse notice board re departing. It called for a taxi down the edge of the marked runway (bags of room) to a holding point and do your engine run up there before departure. While I was there running the engine a call came from an a/c on finals asking me to clear the runway as they were on finals. My immediate thought being 'I'm not on the runway, the runway is marked out and a fair way over yonder.' I did however taxi onto the grass and cleared the actual tarmac bit. It was not a problem whatsoever, all very friendly but it set me thinking (always dangerous).
When is a runway not a runway? Think of somewhere like Fenland or Breighton where the taxiway is simply the wider bit of the runway, the runway itself being marked, much as the situation yesterday. You can't taxi off of Fenlands taxi strip because you will be in a ditch. So what is the actual definition of a runway and when are you actually on it?
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: UK
I would have expected final checks to have been done a little back from the runway edge and the wait to be not on the runway itself but at a holding point.
I've been at a holding point for a runway at Manchester that was part down the main runway (as I was in a GA aircraft) and the big birds quite happily landing on the main runway way before where I was.
Edited to ask, were you actually on the 'large' runway holding for what you thought was the active but narrower runway? If a runway is inactive it will be clearly marked (X) visible from the air.
I've been at a holding point for a runway at Manchester that was part down the main runway (as I was in a GA aircraft) and the big birds quite happily landing on the main runway way before where I was.
Edited to ask, were you actually on the 'large' runway holding for what you thought was the active but narrower runway? If a runway is inactive it will be clearly marked (X) visible from the air.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
I was on the 'large' inactive bit of the runway off to the side, where in fact I was supposed to be. As I say, it wan't a problem I just thought it was a bit confusing....and then as I was lining up and called 'G**** lining up and taking off' there was a little voice popped up on the radio saying 'Are you on the grass or the hard?'...
There isn't an actual taxiway to the end of the runway, the taxiway is the runway, but not the marked runway....confusing innit?
the wait to be not on the runway itself but at a holding point.
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From: Scotland
thing, based only on your post and on the understanding that you were correctly observing the club procedures I'd opine that you would have been in the right to reply stating that you were clear of the runway and not move. Without knowing the field in question I'd even go as far as to say that if it was a 'non radio' field with safety com being used you'd have been perfectly entitled to keep quite, stay put and let the other guy decide what to do.
That all said getting yourself further away from someone who might not be as on the ball as yourself sounds like a good 'self preservation' move. Just because someone else isn't up to scratch and is being stupid doesn't mean you have to play his game.
That all said getting yourself further away from someone who might not be as on the ball as yourself sounds like a good 'self preservation' move. Just because someone else isn't up to scratch and is being stupid doesn't mean you have to play his game.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: UK
Safety must come first.
There must have been a reason why the full width was not in use.
Therefore the call should have been;
"Aircraft landing, I understand that the full width of the runway is not in use"
Edited to say that it was still a sensible move to get yourself clear.
There must have been a reason why the full width was not in use.
Therefore the call should have been;
"Aircraft landing, I understand that the full width of the runway is not in use"
Edited to say that it was still a sensible move to get yourself clear.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
I did take the retreat to a safe distance ploy, discretion being the better part of valour etc. As I must repeat, it was all very friendly and not officious and it's certainly a place I will return to. It just raised the question of runways that are on runways and the procedures thereof.
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From: Uk
I think that I know the airfield in question (if not one very much like it).
The approach of refusing to move, that you are not on the runway because you are not on the marked bit is IMO completely legally correct, but . . .
(a) try explaining to St Peter (or whatever variant you have) that you shouldn't be meeting him because the law says the guy who landed on you shouldn't have done
(b) if it's a friendly place full of friendly people there's no harm in being friendly back, even if the guy landing might in your eyes be a complete muppet.
It's possible that for whatever reason the landing aircraft (which has right of way anyway) needed the wider area, he might have had a possible landing gear problem, it might have been a taildragger with the possibility of ground looping etc etc.
Its always worth remembering that there is always someone less knowledgeable and experienced than ourselves and if by acting the way you did you made it a safe and pleasant experience then where's the harm in that
The approach of refusing to move, that you are not on the runway because you are not on the marked bit is IMO completely legally correct, but . . .
(a) try explaining to St Peter (or whatever variant you have) that you shouldn't be meeting him because the law says the guy who landed on you shouldn't have done
(b) if it's a friendly place full of friendly people there's no harm in being friendly back, even if the guy landing might in your eyes be a complete muppet.
It's possible that for whatever reason the landing aircraft (which has right of way anyway) needed the wider area, he might have had a possible landing gear problem, it might have been a taildragger with the possibility of ground looping etc etc.
Its always worth remembering that there is always someone less knowledgeable and experienced than ourselves and if by acting the way you did you made it a safe and pleasant experience then where's the harm in that
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Surely at BREIGHTON the grass is the runway and the hard bit is the taxiway !
150 Driver:
If I may say it yet again, it was an excellent visit, the pub (you obviously know which one!) is excellent, the people were friendly to me and my partner and I will recommend a visit to said airfield to all of my friends. It was just a question about runways. I think the landing aircraft was an instructional or taster flight, I'm only guessing here. Lady on the radio. There was absolutely no problem moving onto the grass. Maybe the poster in the clubhouse may be better reading something like 'Taxi to the end of the runway and then onto the grass for power checks' and that would solve everything.
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From: UK
I can think of a few places that meet the description, but it doesn't really matter where it was.
It's not unusual to mark a much smaller runway on a large old runway. The reasons are straightforward enough - the full bigger runway isn't needed, and would cost a fortune to maintain, so they mark as much as they actually need, and maintain that bit properly. The rest is manoeuvring area. Taxiways might be marked, but usually they're not.
So, if you're on the marked runway, it's a runway. If you're not (but on the big old runway) take care as there are probably potholes, but the etiquette is basicallly the same as if it was all a big grass field with a runway marked - taxi as per commonsense and local instructions, stay off the marked runway until it's appropriate to enter it. Do your run-ups where you aren't in anybody's way (or where told to, if there are local instructions about it).
If you were well off to the side of the marked runway, then the aeroplane landing was incorrect. On the other hand, he could have had any number of reasons for needing a bit of elbow room, so your amiably moving further out of the way, so long as it didn't take you anywhere unsafe for your aeroplane, was aeronautical good sense and manners in my opinion.
G
It's not unusual to mark a much smaller runway on a large old runway. The reasons are straightforward enough - the full bigger runway isn't needed, and would cost a fortune to maintain, so they mark as much as they actually need, and maintain that bit properly. The rest is manoeuvring area. Taxiways might be marked, but usually they're not.
So, if you're on the marked runway, it's a runway. If you're not (but on the big old runway) take care as there are probably potholes, but the etiquette is basicallly the same as if it was all a big grass field with a runway marked - taxi as per commonsense and local instructions, stay off the marked runway until it's appropriate to enter it. Do your run-ups where you aren't in anybody's way (or where told to, if there are local instructions about it).
If you were well off to the side of the marked runway, then the aeroplane landing was incorrect. On the other hand, he could have had any number of reasons for needing a bit of elbow room, so your amiably moving further out of the way, so long as it didn't take you anywhere unsafe for your aeroplane, was aeronautical good sense and manners in my opinion.
G
Joined: May 2014
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From: Uk
Thing, sorry, wasn't having a go at you 
All I was trying to say was that I think you'd have been right legally if you had chosen to do nothing, but all credit for being sensible.
All I was trying to say was that I think you'd have been right legally if you had chosen to do nothing, but all credit for being sensible.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Yorkshire
...say 11 at Breighton...
Hate to seem picky, but I think the runway at Breighton is now 10/28.
£1 donation to Cancer Research if you say '11', or '29' now!
MJ
Ps. You did the right thing for all the right reasons, Thing.
