Logging Shared P1/PIC Time in Log Book
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 7,177
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From: Nanaimo (CAC8)
My Canadian Log Book, which according to the title page, meets TC requirements, doesn't have columns for takeoff and landing times!
I agree. My log book is messy enough already.
I wouldn't mess up your logbook for the sake of 'administrative correctness'
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 266
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From: UK
There are all sorts of trails which should marry - for example, fuel, fees, engineering logs, movement logs, LARS/ATC strips.
IIRC times for take-off and landing should be recorded, but I doubt anyone would bother too much if they weren't. OTOH if you were marginal for currency and/or hours for revalidation and then had a serious accident, the times may take on an altogether different importance.
IIRC times for take-off and landing should be recorded, but I doubt anyone would bother too much if they weren't. OTOH if you were marginal for currency and/or hours for revalidation and then had a serious accident, the times may take on an altogether different importance.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
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From: United Kingdom
I've just never logged take off/landing times and no one has ever commented on it.
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,270
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From: The World
Could somebody please enlighten me, I am lost.
I was under the impression that PIC is named before T/O and stays PIC, independent of who is taking when control. Everything else would break my thinking of ICAO settings, sorry to push the issue.
I also remember when preparing for FAA IR that you had to present evidence for a certain number of hours x-country, where the definition is given by direct line between departure and destination in extend of (I think it was) 50 nauticals. I had some discussion with the FI and got confirmed that local flights and real flight distance are irrelevant, so it is important for such case to log according to rules.
From all this I would log flight departure and arrival plus put anything like you have control in remarks, if of any importance (something like original opt 2). Did we not have a similar discussion on P2 logged hours lately?
I was under the impression that PIC is named before T/O and stays PIC, independent of who is taking when control. Everything else would break my thinking of ICAO settings, sorry to push the issue.
I also remember when preparing for FAA IR that you had to present evidence for a certain number of hours x-country, where the definition is given by direct line between departure and destination in extend of (I think it was) 50 nauticals. I had some discussion with the FI and got confirmed that local flights and real flight distance are irrelevant, so it is important for such case to log according to rules.
From all this I would log flight departure and arrival plus put anything like you have control in remarks, if of any importance (something like original opt 2). Did we not have a similar discussion on P2 logged hours lately?
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 64
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From: dorset
What about currency and revalidation?
If your log book only show three take offs and no landings in the preceding 90 days, you could not legally take a passenger ( the pilot claiming the latter portion of the flight).
For revalidation you must show 12 take offs and landings.
Can you use flights logged in either method?
If your log book only show three take offs and no landings in the preceding 90 days, you could not legally take a passenger ( the pilot claiming the latter portion of the flight).
For revalidation you must show 12 take offs and landings.
Can you use flights logged in either method?
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,490
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From: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
In my logbook all times are entered UTC - which meant for some quizzical looks from some when looking at night flying in California at 11:00 with 4 hours in the flight conditions "Night" column.
I often log flights as P1 with no take-off or landing recorded - as if I am not the handling pilot I was not the manipulator of the controls. It would only raise itself as problematic when you're scratching minutes to revalidate by experience. Perhaps one should consider revalidation by test? Cheaper and easier.
Just my €0.02
DD
I often log flights as P1 with no take-off or landing recorded - as if I am not the handling pilot I was not the manipulator of the controls. It would only raise itself as problematic when you're scratching minutes to revalidate by experience. Perhaps one should consider revalidation by test? Cheaper and easier.
Just my €0.02
DD
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,115
Likes: 4
From: Yorkshire
What about currency and revalidation?
You only count the time you were PIC, and the takeoffs or landings that you actually did as PIC.
As DD says above, As an instructor, there may be some flights where you do neither the takeoff, or the landing.
MJ
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 689
Likes: 16
From: Down south
On a SPA the aircraft commander logs P1. As the commander he has responsibility for the pre flight, flight and post flight actions as specified in the ANO. How, therefore, can the commander of a SPA change during the flight?
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 365
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From: LONDON
How, therefore, can the commander of a SPA change during the flight?
Dont make it complicated.
Está servira para distraerle.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
From: In a perambulator.
(If there are are two pilots on board both current and qualified on type and can safely reach all controls, they CAN decide who is P1 at ANY time they choose. And must log each portion of the flight they did.
Don't make it complicated.)
They could equally well decide to share the flying in which case they'd be joint P1s. They can't be P1 or P2 on such an aircraft. Why not just log the the total time each with a suitable encoded comment in the remarks column and take it from there. The object is hours I presume and what's the worst that could happen? A division of the total time spent flying together into two parts, based on the remarks column, if anyone ever bothered to pick upon it.
I know that flight schools often work time on the Hobbs but isn't flight time actually taken on the first movement of the aircraft until the final application of brakes? Take off and landing times are for flight logs not log book logging?
Don't make it complicated.)
They could equally well decide to share the flying in which case they'd be joint P1s. They can't be P1 or P2 on such an aircraft. Why not just log the the total time each with a suitable encoded comment in the remarks column and take it from there. The object is hours I presume and what's the worst that could happen? A division of the total time spent flying together into two parts, based on the remarks column, if anyone ever bothered to pick upon it.
I know that flight schools often work time on the Hobbs but isn't flight time actually taken on the first movement of the aircraft until the final application of brakes? Take off and landing times are for flight logs not log book logging?
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
They can't be joint P1s and for them both to log the time as such would be creating fraudulent entities and is such subject to prosecution. Current rate is a thousand pounds a line for fraudulent entries in fines......
Joined: Mar 2014
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From: The World
This has been done to death. Easy, If there are are two pilots on board both current and qualified on type and can safely reach all controls, they CAN decide who is P1 at ANY time they choose. And must log each portion of the flight they did.
Dont make it complicated.
Dont make it complicated.
Está servira para distraerle.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6
Likes: 1
From: In a perambulator.
Hmmm.....perhaps I was brought up in an ancient age where time was less important but that what you did with it was of greater value.
At £1g per line and somewhere around £180 an hour for wet hire, you just need to make it a long cross country to be in profit.
At £1g per line and somewhere around £180 an hour for wet hire, you just need to make it a long cross country to be in profit.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 365
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From: LONDON
They could equally well decide to share the flying in which case they'd be joint P1s
No, they can not legally, at least to my knowledge
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 845
From: Tring, UK
No, they can not legally, at least to my knowledge...
I can log P1 time even when I’m asleep in the bunk (as I’m still the captain) but can handover command to someone else if it’s required, at which point I can't. It might be something like running out of hours before the end of the flight due to different previous duties, which I have actually had to do.
It’s harder to think of specific examples as to why you’d need to do this in a light aircraft but I suppose one might be if you had taken off on a nice day but the weather deteriorated, you had to do an IMC recovery and only one of you was instrument qualified. Might make sense to make them P1 at that point?
AFAIK there is no prohibition for apportioning P1 time amongst different people during the flight under CAA/EASA regulations. Happy to be proved wrong (with references!)