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What does 'wheels up landing' mean to you?

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What does 'wheels up landing' mean to you?

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Old 10th Nov 2014, 12:55
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What does 'wheels up landing' mean to you?

I was talking to a non-pilot a while ago and told him how a Yak52 I once had a share in had done a wheels-up landing (not by me!).

What picture does that generate in your mind?

He replied "What, it landed upside down? How did that happen?".

To me, the description 'wheels up landing' is pretty unequivocal. It means it landed with its undercarriage still retracted. But he, a non pilot, though I was saying it landed with its wheels pointing upwards.

Am I being presumptuous in thinking him a bit dim? Or is his take on my description entirely reasonable for a non pilot? If the latter, I wonder what other strange impressions we give to non-flyers when describing our aviating exploits?
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:00
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dim wit in the extreme.

Was he something to do with a HR department?
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:14
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Of course when a Yak 52's wheels are 'up' they're not really 'up' but a bit 'down' to protect a/c from dozy soviet students....
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:47
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I can remember an Anson doing a wheels up at Bovingdon back in the 60s. Simply stopped the props horizontal and hey presto, no airframe damage.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:50
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He's only dim in the way non-pilots think "stalling" means the engine has stopped..

PS: The OP title to a forum like this, there is really not much point is there?.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:52
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Doesn't it mean you just need a bit more power to taxi?

Rans6.......
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 13:56
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Only if you can do it with funny shaped props.......
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 14:04
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I religiously say out loud my landing gear position while on downwind, and land wheels up all the time - no problem...
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 14:14
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Well, yes, to go along with the thread-drift a '52 landed gear-up will touch down on the mains and the tail handle; even the wheel brakes can still be used in the roll out. The prop will be smashed and the flaps bent, but otherwise it'll be OK.

The prop is wood, and designed to break without damaging the mighty engine or gearbox. So in Russia they jacked it up, fitted a new prop, straightened the flaps, and went flying.

When it happened to ours, UK engineers refuses to sign off the engine and gearbox without a shock-load strip. Such were our engine hours (under CAA rules) it was cheaper to simply fit a new engine. One of the group was an engineer and he took the now-scrap original engine to his workshop and out of interest stripped it down. Not only was there absolutely no damage to engine or gearbox, there was no discernible wear, either; the honing marks were still fresh in the cylinder bores yet according to the CAA this engine was almost life expired and fit only for scrap.
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Old 10th Nov 2014, 14:18
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"Be prepared", as they say in the Scouts.



Craig Hosking's Pitts Special

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Old 10th Nov 2014, 17:09
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Don't forget the recent airprox in which a Typhoon (was it?) "bunted" to avoid a collision.

Several newspapers published diagrams of how it had done a half outside loop (starting at about 250 feet if I recall correctly!
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 09:32
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I used to wonder how many of the general public think gliders have no controls and the pilot just sits there having a ride!
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 09:45
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What does 'wheels up landing' mean to you?
There are pilots who have landed wheels up, and there are pilots who are going to land wheels up, just be prepared.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 11:35
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There are pilots who have landed wheels up, and there are pilots who are going to land wheels up, just be prepared.
To me, a wheels up landing on a hard surface suggests a failure somewhere during the flight. Failures do happen, and yes, they are a reason for preparation. However prevention is even more important than preparation. I've known many pilots, whom through adequate prevention few an entire career without landing with the wheels in the wrong position, so saying that that is going to happen, is simply not right.

I focus on "configuration assurance" so at each phase of flight, I'm assuring that the aircraft is configured for what I'm about to do next with it. I have many flights for which extending the wheels for landing will end very badly, so I'm busy assuring they are where I intend them to be, not just "down".
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 11:37
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"Wheels up" refer only for RG airplanes, or better, if your wheels are up on a C172 you are in real dip**** waters ... ;-). If talking to non-pilots, use the term "belly burning" landings instead, as it avoids the discussion on where is up and where is down.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 13:50
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if your wheels are up on a C172 you are in real dip**** waters
I've flown C172's, which did not leave the factory as "RG" models, but in fact were equipped with retractable wheels.....
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 13:58
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so saying that that is going to happen, is simply not right.
Which is why I prefer, "There are those that have landed wheels-up and those that haven't.....yet."

I know you understand what you think I said but I am not sure that you realise that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 16:14
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No-one should think themselves immune from landing wheels-up, especially in an aeroplane like the Yak which has no warning horn or auto-extend system. When ours suffered that fate, the pilot had apparently made one 'wheels down' approach but was bulked by a microlight and went around, retracting the gear.

His unexpected and unplanned second circuit was fraught with trying to fit the high performance Yak (in terms of high rate of climb, lead budgie rate of descent) into the usual stream of floaty bomber-circuit spam cans so he was distracted. He'd mentally crossed-off putting the gear down as he'd already done it and not yet landed.

I managed 30+ years of taildragging without ever ground looping, and several years of Yak flying without forgetting the gear. But I was always aware that one day I might.

A friend (who flew the type for the airline) tells me of a BA 1-11 which landed gear-up at Tees Side, with three captains on the flight deck. They were practicing flapless landings, and as the aeroplane was empty of pax or luggage it was fuelled up to the limit to get the weight up to make the exercise realistic. The weight meant the approach speed was above the upper limit for the 'gear not down' detector, and all 3 highly experienced Nigels forgot to do it.

I believe even 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham once did it in a Comet, too. So skygods are not immune.
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Old 11th Nov 2014, 22:01
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I believe even 'Cats Eyes' Cunningham once did it in a Comet, too.........
Just for the record, it was in an HS125. Apparently it was still a smooth landing, and when the RFFS arrived on scene JC's initial comment was "What very tall Firemen they have at Luton"
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Old 12th Nov 2014, 00:52
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I know you understand what you think I said but I am not sure that you realise that what you heard is not what I meant.
Hmmmm..... Know that I don't understand that!

I am simply unwilling to accept the notion that a pilot who flies RG "will" have a gear up, or that a gear up has not happened to that pilot yet. Silly.

We, the pilots of the world, will have a terrible time convincing insurers that we are worthy of being insured for gear up landings, if our attitude appears one of being resigned to "it's going to happen sometime...". I would rather enter the process with a commitment that I will always act so as to prevent landing with an unintended gear position. Of course, I insure for mistakes and system failures, but it doesn't mean that I plan to have either, or I'm just going to allow it to happen, by letting fate take its course. I will act to prevent.

A simple gear up landing generally does not result in an injurious accident, just scraped metal, and a sheepish call to the insurance man. Then higher premiums later. A wheels down landing in an amphibian on the water runs a good chance of costing lives, but will certainly scrap a plane. For me, a wrong gear position landing could be fatal, so I will work to prevent any such event.

If a pilot I was to train came to me with a "when" rather than remotely "if" attitude to gear up landings, I would be having a heart to heart talk with that pilot about attitude before we flew.

I may one day have a gear up, (though I'm really trying not to). If I ever do, I'm not going to stand beside the plane, and say "I knew that would happen one day..." - what a poor attitude! This is an attitude, and professional image issue. Would I allow a pilot to fly my plane, if that pilot was working toward their when of a gear up landing?
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