Blackpool Airport
Can anyone explain the relationship between the ATZ and the airport closing to commercial traffic?
I'm wondering how long the ATZ stays in place and will the airspace eventually revert to class G? Does it depend on runway length and remain in place for GA?
I'm wondering how long the ATZ stays in place and will the airspace eventually revert to class G? Does it depend on runway length and remain in place for GA?
Last edited by Hadley Rille; 3rd Oct 2014 at 14:34.
Hadley Rille
Provided that the aerodrome remains licensed and the length of the longest runway stays the same the current 2.5 NM radius ATZ remains in place.
If the aerodrome was to de-license, it could keep its ATZ if either ATC or AFIS is provided. However if the main runway length is reduced to 1850 metres or less, the ATZ would reduce to 2.0 NM radius. If only Air/Ground Communications Service is provided, they would lose the ATZ.
Interesting times ahead, if the aerodrome cannot operate as a viable business with passenger carrying flights, it certainly will not without them. The infrastructure necessary to support passenger flights (ie ATC/ ILS/Instrument approach procedures) will not be sustainable.
Sorry to say it looks like the end of the road for the airport as we have known it for the past years. I shall be sorry to see it go as I had my first ever flight from there, age 4 years, in a DH Dragon.
Provided that the aerodrome remains licensed and the length of the longest runway stays the same the current 2.5 NM radius ATZ remains in place.
If the aerodrome was to de-license, it could keep its ATZ if either ATC or AFIS is provided. However if the main runway length is reduced to 1850 metres or less, the ATZ would reduce to 2.0 NM radius. If only Air/Ground Communications Service is provided, they would lose the ATZ.
Interesting times ahead, if the aerodrome cannot operate as a viable business with passenger carrying flights, it certainly will not without them. The infrastructure necessary to support passenger flights (ie ATC/ ILS/Instrument approach procedures) will not be sustainable.
Sorry to say it looks like the end of the road for the airport as we have known it for the past years. I shall be sorry to see it go as I had my first ever flight from there, age 4 years, in a DH Dragon.
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Sorry to say it looks like the end of the road for the airport as we have known it for the past years. I shall be sorry to see it go as I had my first ever flight from there, age 4 years, in a DH Dragon
Flown there off and on for the past thirty years.
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TCAS Fan wrote:
" If only Air/Ground Communications Service is provided, they would lose the ATZ."
Incorrect.
If a licensed airfield then you can have an ATZ with A/G (see EGPG - Cumbernauld)
If unlicensed, then to have an ATZ you need to have FISOs operating radios. So Glenrothes - now unlicensed due to the changes that allow ab initio traning from unlicensed airfields - has lost its ATZ.
The only logic seems to be that "serious" airfields should have ATZs!
(Two of Scotland's four largest recreational airfields - based on aircraft based there - would therefore not be allowed ATZs.)
ps Strathaven is also, it seems, ineligble for a four-letter ICAO code because most of the aircraft based there are microlights and homebuilts.
" If only Air/Ground Communications Service is provided, they would lose the ATZ."
Incorrect.
If a licensed airfield then you can have an ATZ with A/G (see EGPG - Cumbernauld)
If unlicensed, then to have an ATZ you need to have FISOs operating radios. So Glenrothes - now unlicensed due to the changes that allow ab initio traning from unlicensed airfields - has lost its ATZ.
The only logic seems to be that "serious" airfields should have ATZs!
(Two of Scotland's four largest recreational airfields - based on aircraft based there - would therefore not be allowed ATZs.)
ps Strathaven is also, it seems, ineligble for a four-letter ICAO code because most of the aircraft based there are microlights and homebuilts.
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As far as I understand it's just there to protect traffic on/around the aerodrome.
I think you always need to be in two-way radio contact with the ATSU if inside the ATZ, and if the ATSU is an ATC unit you need to obey all instructions given by the ATCO.
I think you always need to be in two-way radio contact with the ATSU if inside the ATZ, and if the ATSU is an ATC unit you need to obey all instructions given by the ATCO.
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Hi Odai,
"I think you always need to be in two-way radio contact with the ATSU if inside the ATZ, and if the ATSU is an ATC unit you need to obey all instructions given by the ATCO."
Incorrect.
Glasgow (ATC) and Cumbernauld (ATZ with A/G) allow non-radio traffic (see AIP).
Of course, it is many moons since anyone even dared ask to go into Glasgow non-radio!
So, two-way contact - but could be by light signal or (as has happened with one of our chaps) relay from another aircraft in formation.
ps. Cumbernauld, as far as I know, now doesn't have an Aldis lamp. H&S said they couldn't keep the battery in the tower. So they would have had to carry it up and down the stairs. Folks said: if we go down the stairs, we can just use the radio in the fire truck!
"I think you always need to be in two-way radio contact with the ATSU if inside the ATZ, and if the ATSU is an ATC unit you need to obey all instructions given by the ATCO."
Incorrect.
Glasgow (ATC) and Cumbernauld (ATZ with A/G) allow non-radio traffic (see AIP).
Of course, it is many moons since anyone even dared ask to go into Glasgow non-radio!
So, two-way contact - but could be by light signal or (as has happened with one of our chaps) relay from another aircraft in formation.
ps. Cumbernauld, as far as I know, now doesn't have an Aldis lamp. H&S said they couldn't keep the battery in the tower. So they would have had to carry it up and down the stairs. Folks said: if we go down the stairs, we can just use the radio in the fire truck!
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As Odai said:
"As far as I understand it's just there to protect traffic on/around the aerodrome."
Basically, the airfield operator gets some say on who flies in the vicinity of their airfield. They might allow people in non-radio but PPR, they might say people have to have radio and PPR, they might just let people call up on the radio.
They might even, like Oban, say PPR by telephone only, and then try to turn away a pal of mine who called up on radio. He then phoned a minute later on his mobile interfaced with the intercom!!! Ha! Ha!
It also gives a little bit of conspicuity on the charts! Otherwise, Farmer Giles with a 40 hour a year Piper Cub gets a small circle on the chart. A busy microlight training airfield might also have the same annotation - see East Fortune or Strathaven. Or a busy GA field, see Fife.
"As far as I understand it's just there to protect traffic on/around the aerodrome."
Basically, the airfield operator gets some say on who flies in the vicinity of their airfield. They might allow people in non-radio but PPR, they might say people have to have radio and PPR, they might just let people call up on the radio.
They might even, like Oban, say PPR by telephone only, and then try to turn away a pal of mine who called up on radio. He then phoned a minute later on his mobile interfaced with the intercom!!! Ha! Ha!
It also gives a little bit of conspicuity on the charts! Otherwise, Farmer Giles with a 40 hour a year Piper Cub gets a small circle on the chart. A busy microlight training airfield might also have the same annotation - see East Fortune or Strathaven. Or a busy GA field, see Fife.
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xrayalpha, thanks for that - clears things up for me. 
Looks like I confused 'two-way contact' with 'two-way radio contact' - I should know better given I did my PPL training at an airfield with an ATZ that often featured non-radio aircraft (and a signals square).
Looks like I confused 'two-way contact' with 'two-way radio contact' - I should know better given I did my PPL training at an airfield with an ATZ that often featured non-radio aircraft (and a signals square).
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Blackpool Airport
Does anyone know what's going to happen to GA at Blackpool Airport? Companies such as ANT and Flight Training Blackpool, will they have to close or will they operate out of it as an unmanned airfield?
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Blackpool Airport is Licensed (P724) by the CAA and therefore is open to commercial air transport operations requiring the use of said licensed airport.
A few years ago the CAA changed the rules for those airfields licensed purely for flying training and a few took advantage.
It would be possible for some operations to continue at Blackpool if the status changed but cancelling the licence triggers other consequences such as the loss of airspace and some r/t frequencies as the ANSP approval would go too.
If the licence is issued to a part of Balfour Beatty as opposed to Blackpool's local authority it's loss would be hard to regain due to the new licensee having to comply with EASA rules.
If BB fail to sell their share of the airport what they do with it as an asset remains to be seen but will be key to continued GA ops.
The Council have been very quiet on this subject but must have a Plan B for the 15th Oct. What if BB lock all the gates so no-one can get in or out?
As many livelihoods depend on continuing flying activity clear statements of intentions are need now to bring some certainty to the situation.
SGC
A few years ago the CAA changed the rules for those airfields licensed purely for flying training and a few took advantage.
It would be possible for some operations to continue at Blackpool if the status changed but cancelling the licence triggers other consequences such as the loss of airspace and some r/t frequencies as the ANSP approval would go too.
If the licence is issued to a part of Balfour Beatty as opposed to Blackpool's local authority it's loss would be hard to regain due to the new licensee having to comply with EASA rules.
If BB fail to sell their share of the airport what they do with it as an asset remains to be seen but will be key to continued GA ops.
The Council have been very quiet on this subject but must have a Plan B for the 15th Oct. What if BB lock all the gates so no-one can get in or out?
As many livelihoods depend on continuing flying activity clear statements of intentions are need now to bring some certainty to the situation.
SGC
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Quotes from Blackpool gazette
"Air traffic control and fire cover will end on October 15th. The smaller general aviation companies at the Squires Gate hub will be free to continue to operate."
"more than 100 staff at the airport, including fire fighters, security, air traffic controllers and administrative staff, are set to lose their jobs when the airport shuts on Wednesday 15th Oct"
If Atc are being booted out, surely a/g or info can't replace them immediately? Looks like the whole of Blackpool airport will be shutting after all then at least until there's some sort of radio cover sorted?
"Air traffic control and fire cover will end on October 15th. The smaller general aviation companies at the Squires Gate hub will be free to continue to operate."
"more than 100 staff at the airport, including fire fighters, security, air traffic controllers and administrative staff, are set to lose their jobs when the airport shuts on Wednesday 15th Oct"
If Atc are being booted out, surely a/g or info can't replace them immediately? Looks like the whole of Blackpool airport will be shutting after all then at least until there's some sort of radio cover sorted?
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Standing back from all this for a second - it seems bizarre that Blackpool Airport is closing so suddenly.
It's been in operation for so many years yet at the stroke of Balfour Beatty's lawyer's pen it's all over.
I'm just sorry for all those who earned a livelihood through the Airport and imagine it must all be something of a shock.
I certainly had heard nothing about it until this Thread on PPRuNe.
It's been in operation for so many years yet at the stroke of Balfour Beatty's lawyer's pen it's all over.
I'm just sorry for all those who earned a livelihood through the Airport and imagine it must all be something of a shock.
I certainly had heard nothing about it until this Thread on PPRuNe.