Do schools teach people to be pilots?
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Do schools teach people to be pilots?
Or just sell a course of flying lessons?
I'm thinking about leisure flying (not commercial) and the large number of learners who post questions on here that, whilst they are sensible questions for a learner to ask, are questions that really should be answered by their instructor, by info given them by the school, or by reading around the subject.
Are instructors so pressed for time that they don't have time to help students by covering all the flying general knowledge that they need? Don't they sit and have a coffee together from time to time? Don't they chat about flying and how great it is?
Whats going on?
I'm thinking about leisure flying (not commercial) and the large number of learners who post questions on here that, whilst they are sensible questions for a learner to ask, are questions that really should be answered by their instructor, by info given them by the school, or by reading around the subject.
Are instructors so pressed for time that they don't have time to help students by covering all the flying general knowledge that they need? Don't they sit and have a coffee together from time to time? Don't they chat about flying and how great it is?
Whats going on?
Flight schools have one mission and that is to get you to pass the exams. Once you have your licence, their job is done.
Once you have the licence, then can you begin to learn being a pilot.
Once you have the licence, then can you begin to learn being a pilot.
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What Jan Olieslagers says.
The school has no idea if you will compete at aeros, get an IR or fly a Cub with your feet hanging out an a big grin. All it is about is to get your license and then you go off and learn the bit of aviation you like best.
Rod1
The school has no idea if you will compete at aeros, get an IR or fly a Cub with your feet hanging out an a big grin. All it is about is to get your license and then you go off and learn the bit of aviation you like best.
Rod1
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Whatever they teach they have to and as far as I see, succeed to instil the ethos of what it is to be a pilot otherwise post ppl far too many will think their learning is done.
Don't forget a lot of people like the anonymity of posting questions on forums rather than asking real people face to face.
Don't forget a lot of people like the anonymity of posting questions on forums rather than asking real people face to face.
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I don't think it's the school's responsibility.
I think it's the student's.
As a student you can get as little or as much as you want from the courses available.
I took a class for ground school, I also got several books on the subject, and I took a video course as well. That was how I prepared myself for the knowledge parts.
When flight training, between lessons, I used to practice in the chair at home, replaying in my mind the previous lesson (or two). And I read in the books about whatever it was that my instructor was teaching me, and what I expected him (I asked) to teach me in the next lesson. That way I was prepared for that next lesson when it came.
If you go through life expecting to be taught everything without having to learn, you'll only ever be mediocre at whatever you do.
If you really love something, like flying, then why not reach out and grab every bit of flying knowledge that you can?
I think it's the student's.
As a student you can get as little or as much as you want from the courses available.
I took a class for ground school, I also got several books on the subject, and I took a video course as well. That was how I prepared myself for the knowledge parts.
When flight training, between lessons, I used to practice in the chair at home, replaying in my mind the previous lesson (or two). And I read in the books about whatever it was that my instructor was teaching me, and what I expected him (I asked) to teach me in the next lesson. That way I was prepared for that next lesson when it came.
If you go through life expecting to be taught everything without having to learn, you'll only ever be mediocre at whatever you do.
If you really love something, like flying, then why not reach out and grab every bit of flying knowledge that you can?
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I am sure some schools are better than others at this.
I am quite happy with the 'extracurricular' time my school spends with me.
Part of the problem is that some students just want to get their license and 'get on with it' - they don't see the license as part off their 'real flying' but as an ordeal which has to be passed. Those students would be unhappy with a school which is more 'holistic'. And vice versa.
Unfortunately, whether what the student wants = what the school offers may not be immediately apparent after a trial flight.
After lurking here and on other forums, I felt much better 'armed' w.r.t. having some trial lessons and what I wanted to do - and hence what I looked or. Maybe many students don't do that prior research and end up making poor choices. I was initially in the 'get on with it' camp but firmly moved across.
I think it does show the importance of choosing the right school - something most of us only do once and therefore are not necessarily very good at.
That said, this being an anonymous forum, a. (as mentioned) some people take comfort from that as it enables them to ask questions they may be embarrassed to ask face to face and b. not all posters are what they seem and some 'students' may never have actually taken a lesson...
B.
I am quite happy with the 'extracurricular' time my school spends with me.
Part of the problem is that some students just want to get their license and 'get on with it' - they don't see the license as part off their 'real flying' but as an ordeal which has to be passed. Those students would be unhappy with a school which is more 'holistic'. And vice versa.
Unfortunately, whether what the student wants = what the school offers may not be immediately apparent after a trial flight.
After lurking here and on other forums, I felt much better 'armed' w.r.t. having some trial lessons and what I wanted to do - and hence what I looked or. Maybe many students don't do that prior research and end up making poor choices. I was initially in the 'get on with it' camp but firmly moved across.
I think it does show the importance of choosing the right school - something most of us only do once and therefore are not necessarily very good at.
That said, this being an anonymous forum, a. (as mentioned) some people take comfort from that as it enables them to ask questions they may be embarrassed to ask face to face and b. not all posters are what they seem and some 'students' may never have actually taken a lesson...
B.
I have no idea what British flying schools are like -- and I mention that because most of the posters here seem to be British -- but I must say I've been amazed by some of the questions that pop up on this forum from time to time.
A lot of it seems to be basic stuff that any licensed pilot should already know, or which a student pilot should be asking his instructor.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to deter anyone from asking questions here if there's stuff they don't know and need to know.
As one of my theory teachers used to say: "There are no dumb questions in this classroom. The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask."
A lot of it seems to be basic stuff that any licensed pilot should already know, or which a student pilot should be asking his instructor.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to deter anyone from asking questions here if there's stuff they don't know and need to know.
As one of my theory teachers used to say: "There are no dumb questions in this classroom. The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask."
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In my experience of 9 years, and having done PPL training, IMCR, Night qualification, and renewals of JAR and FAA licenses with a few different airfield organisations in South East UK, I would disagree with Jan and Rod1. Thats not to say its not their experience, but it isnt mine.
The problem is though, that as a PPL sometimes you are at home, on the train, whatever, and you arent in talking distance of your instructor. You could try him or her on the phone, but either they are flying / with another student, or for longer questions, they might need to charge you the clubs going rate. Therefore it is easier to test and gain understanding from a variety of sources, including on here. Of course the advice cannot be taken as gospel, even from a qualified instructor, as he is not your instructor, delivering your schools syllabus. But its fine to ask, and improve your knowledge anyhow.
The other problem is that most schools or communities have little time or resource to deal with post-PPL subjects (e.g. going somewhere more than 45 minutes away, information on the specifics of a certain airfield, or operation like filing a flight plan or a GAR), or even the most basic like how to use the GPS or even what tablet naviation application they recommend). Most of that is beyond what the schoool exists to provide, but if you are at a good school, then beyond the helpful people here, there will be local pilots who will give you their 'advice' for free.
On forums like this, you can be inspired by what other people have done and begin to think beyond your basic PPL and see what other opportunities exist. After my PPL, I found Peter's trip reports incredibly inspiring - Peter's Trip Reports
The problem is though, that as a PPL sometimes you are at home, on the train, whatever, and you arent in talking distance of your instructor. You could try him or her on the phone, but either they are flying / with another student, or for longer questions, they might need to charge you the clubs going rate. Therefore it is easier to test and gain understanding from a variety of sources, including on here. Of course the advice cannot be taken as gospel, even from a qualified instructor, as he is not your instructor, delivering your schools syllabus. But its fine to ask, and improve your knowledge anyhow.
The other problem is that most schools or communities have little time or resource to deal with post-PPL subjects (e.g. going somewhere more than 45 minutes away, information on the specifics of a certain airfield, or operation like filing a flight plan or a GAR), or even the most basic like how to use the GPS or even what tablet naviation application they recommend). Most of that is beyond what the schoool exists to provide, but if you are at a good school, then beyond the helpful people here, there will be local pilots who will give you their 'advice' for free.
On forums like this, you can be inspired by what other people have done and begin to think beyond your basic PPL and see what other opportunities exist. After my PPL, I found Peter's trip reports incredibly inspiring - Peter's Trip Reports
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If you look at who is doing the teaching, you might be able to work out the answer.
Many PPL FIs are low time hour builders with not much experience outside of teaching the basics to others.
Many PPL FIs are low time hour builders with not much experience outside of teaching the basics to others.
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Schools and teacher teach the pilot-to-be how to survive the next 100 flight hours after exam, no more, no less.
The rising questions from students are signature of two current things: first, the tendency to not use your brain but Google or a Forum; second, the bull**** of having faith in something we currently encounter in discussions as swarm intelligence - you do not have to think, because the big thingie around you will tell you. Both are dramatic and stupid, but that is what history will measure us on in 20 years.
The rising questions from students are signature of two current things: first, the tendency to not use your brain but Google or a Forum; second, the bull**** of having faith in something we currently encounter in discussions as swarm intelligence - you do not have to think, because the big thingie around you will tell you. Both are dramatic and stupid, but that is what history will measure us on in 20 years.
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I think there are two elements to it. First - as said above - some people come here and ask questions as "students" when they aren't. This isn't a bad thing and asking questions on the internet is easier than phoning or physically going to a club and asking the questions in person (which can be quite intimidating). I suspect that an awful lot of the really daft questions fall into that category.
The other thing is that when I'm with my FI I'm normally pretty focussed on whatever he's teaching me at the time and so thats where my questions will sit. Generic questions on some of the finer points of - for example - air law or even on the technicalities of aircraft hire in the dim and distant future when I qualify are not at the front of my mind. Lastly FIs are like taxi's, always on the clock! Small or obscure questions are often better asked of experienced pilots for free rather than an expensive FI who has another student waiting...
The other thing is that when I'm with my FI I'm normally pretty focussed on whatever he's teaching me at the time and so thats where my questions will sit. Generic questions on some of the finer points of - for example - air law or even on the technicalities of aircraft hire in the dim and distant future when I qualify are not at the front of my mind. Lastly FIs are like taxi's, always on the clock! Small or obscure questions are often better asked of experienced pilots for free rather than an expensive FI who has another student waiting...
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So the general consensus is that the answer to my original question is, "No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."
Which is kinda what I thought. And I think its wrong. You can see it from the purely commercial point of view of the school, but its why so many PPLs give up flying soon after they start - they're not really equipped to go on and enjoy their flying.
Which is kinda what I thought. And I think its wrong. You can see it from the purely commercial point of view of the school, but its why so many PPLs give up flying soon after they start - they're not really equipped to go on and enjoy their flying.
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So the general consensus is that the answer to my original question is, "No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."
Which is kinda what I thought. And I think its wrong. You can see it from the purely commercial point of view of the school, but its why so many PPLs give up flying soon after they start - they're not really equipped to go on and enjoy their flying.
Edit: I was also going to say that using a whizz-wheel, hoping for correctly forecast wind/weather information, and arching your back over the instrument panel constantly hunting for towns and lakes etc in my opinion is not the fun part of flying. Having good skills but coupled with use of some cockpit GPS device, and confidence in it as a situational awareness tool leaves you to a) look out the window more for other aircraft and not things on the ground b) find the fun in the flying, and it should be fun.
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Dear Heston:
I've been very surprised by the way our british and european comrades do their teaching. I can't speak for all schools in the USA but I think we do things a little differently.
When I was teaching, I would always ask what my student planned to do with his flying. Some just wanted an interesting hobby, others wanted to have a career in flying, and there were other reasons too.
But I did try to mold their minds into the mind of a pilot. To start thinking like a pilot even before they got their hands on the controls of the plane. To put SAFETY FIRST.
Thinking like a pilot might be something as, when you are out walking around, always observe the winds and know which way they are coming from. It becomes a good habit. And so much more.
My students would always take a bit longer to actually be ready for their PPL flying test. But they would always be ahead of the game farther down the path.
And then there were the books I would assign, over and above what the FAA thinks is needed. And sitting for hours on the instructor's bench to watch landings and takeoffs while listening to an aviation band radio for the "LING" (lingo as you might imagine)>
So, there you go. I've been attacked and seen others attack similar views on this forum, but its just that they have been 'brought up' in a different way.
So, good luck HESTON. Interview your instructors thoroughly. And if they don't have time, you don't want them as instructors!
I've been very surprised by the way our british and european comrades do their teaching. I can't speak for all schools in the USA but I think we do things a little differently.
When I was teaching, I would always ask what my student planned to do with his flying. Some just wanted an interesting hobby, others wanted to have a career in flying, and there were other reasons too.
But I did try to mold their minds into the mind of a pilot. To start thinking like a pilot even before they got their hands on the controls of the plane. To put SAFETY FIRST.
Thinking like a pilot might be something as, when you are out walking around, always observe the winds and know which way they are coming from. It becomes a good habit. And so much more.
My students would always take a bit longer to actually be ready for their PPL flying test. But they would always be ahead of the game farther down the path.
And then there were the books I would assign, over and above what the FAA thinks is needed. And sitting for hours on the instructor's bench to watch landings and takeoffs while listening to an aviation band radio for the "LING" (lingo as you might imagine)>
So, there you go. I've been attacked and seen others attack similar views on this forum, but its just that they have been 'brought up' in a different way.
So, good luck HESTON. Interview your instructors thoroughly. And if they don't have time, you don't want them as instructors!
"No, schools don't teach students to be pilots, just to pass the exams."
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Like the RAF, more may be learned in the Crew room than the Class room.
But I did try to mold their minds into the mind of a pilot.
In my opinion it all depends on where you learn to fly. Even at my old school (Cabair) you would still get quite a few of the instructors (mainly the older ones as the younger ones generally were just waiting for an airline job) quite willing to sit there and discuss your flying future and the options available.
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Glendalegoon and Whopity - totally agree with those sentiments. I should confess - I am a flying instructor and I work in a club set-up, not at a commercial school. To me going the extra mile (assigning extra books is a good example) is really important if it makes the difference between folk who are as safe as they can be and are having as much fun as they can on the one hand, and on the other hand people who see getting the licence as the end point not the beginning.
Thanks everybody for helping me be confident that I'm right to think the way I do
Thanks everybody for helping me be confident that I'm right to think the way I do
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This may be a good time to revisit the old 'How do I choose a school' question.
The standard response is "Don't pay up front. Go for some trial lessons and see which one you like. And don't pay up front. No, really, don't pay up front."
Maybe we could give some better guidance, e.g.:
- Find out how long the instructor(s) has been instructing for
- Will you have just one or several instructors?
- Will you be able to try out different types of planes (if you wanted to)?
- Will they be able to help you gain other ratings post-PPL?
- Ask them if they organise fly-outs or if you can 'sit in' (or just participate) on club flights
- Find out if they have any experience (even if they have 'just tried for fun') taildragging, aerobatics, strip flying, gliding, seaplanes...
- What is their opinion on the various books available? Can they lend you Stick and Rudder?
- Do they read the internet forums?
B.
The standard response is "Don't pay up front. Go for some trial lessons and see which one you like. And don't pay up front. No, really, don't pay up front."
Maybe we could give some better guidance, e.g.:
- Find out how long the instructor(s) has been instructing for
- Will you have just one or several instructors?
- Will you be able to try out different types of planes (if you wanted to)?
- Will they be able to help you gain other ratings post-PPL?
- Ask them if they organise fly-outs or if you can 'sit in' (or just participate) on club flights
- Find out if they have any experience (even if they have 'just tried for fun') taildragging, aerobatics, strip flying, gliding, seaplanes...
- What is their opinion on the various books available? Can they lend you Stick and Rudder?
- Do they read the internet forums?
B.
No, I can't lend you 'Stick and Rudder'
I am on my third copy, as people 'forget' to return it.
I can tell you where to BUY a copy.
I'm not on the clock, you can ask me questions.
I instruct in a CLUB, for expenses only; you may buy me a beer after the flying is finished for the day.
I am on my third copy, as people 'forget' to return it.
I can tell you where to BUY a copy.
I'm not on the clock, you can ask me questions.
I instruct in a CLUB, for expenses only; you may buy me a beer after the flying is finished for the day.