Visual Approach
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Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Baleares
Visual Approach
Hello to all, would love some help to this question:
During a Visual Approach in controlled class C who is responsible to maintain separation: the pilot or the ATC ?
I thought the pilot but the exam site says ATC.
many thanks
During a Visual Approach in controlled class C who is responsible to maintain separation: the pilot or the ATC ?
I thought the pilot but the exam site says ATC.
many thanks
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Strathaven Airfield
In the UK...... BOTH!
VFR separated from IFR in Class C & D, but NOT separated from other VFR traffic.
From CAA web site:
Class C
IFR and VFR flights are permitted
All flights are provided with air traffic control service
IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and from VFR flights.
VFR flights are separated from IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of other VFR flights.
Class D
IFR and VFR flights are permitted
All flights are provided with air traffic control service
IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of VFR flights
VFR flights receive traffic information in respect of all other flights.
VFR separated from IFR in Class C & D, but NOT separated from other VFR traffic.
From CAA web site:
Class C
IFR and VFR flights are permitted
All flights are provided with air traffic control service
IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and from VFR flights.
VFR flights are separated from IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of other VFR flights.
Class D
IFR and VFR flights are permitted
All flights are provided with air traffic control service
IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of VFR flights
VFR flights receive traffic information in respect of all other flights.
Joined: Mar 2013
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From: EU
I'm not sure what it's supposed to be but I would lean towards saying it is the responsibility of the pilot.
ATC should provide separation from other IFR traffic but will not separate you from VFR traffic, or at least is not obliged to.
The other thing that comes to mind is at a slight tangent, but I find it fairly common to ask for a visual approach and for ATC to say 'do you have the A320 on a 6 mile final in sight?" and then "cleared visual approach behind the landing A320, recommended spacing is xnm" which puts the separation between two IFR flights on the pilot following AFAIK.
ATC should provide separation from other IFR traffic but will not separate you from VFR traffic, or at least is not obliged to.
The other thing that comes to mind is at a slight tangent, but I find it fairly common to ask for a visual approach and for ATC to say 'do you have the A320 on a 6 mile final in sight?" and then "cleared visual approach behind the landing A320, recommended spacing is xnm" which puts the separation between two IFR flights on the pilot following AFAIK.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: a galaxy far, far,away...
As XA said, however -
Do you mean a VFR approach, or and IFR Visual approach?
If VFR -
You are under a control service, so have to follow ATC instructions. ATC will separate you from IFR traffic typically by route and/or level restrictions (eg track via A and B; not above 2000' etc) or, if the weather permits by visual separation (the controller has both a/c in sight & can maintain sep or following a/c has lead a/c in sight & can maintain sep).
Other VFR a/c, you will just receive tfc info, although that could also come with instructions like "join downwind lefthand rwXX. You are no2 to a C172 late downwind left"
*simplified for brevity.
If you mean an IFR visual approach, then you will be separated from everyone.
Rules of exactly how a controller may separate do vary slightly from country to country, however, so your best bet to get things straight in your mind is a visit to your friendly local ATC unit. Don't forget to go armed with biscuits and/or cakes!
AP
Do you mean a VFR approach, or and IFR Visual approach?
If VFR -
You are under a control service, so have to follow ATC instructions. ATC will separate you from IFR traffic typically by route and/or level restrictions (eg track via A and B; not above 2000' etc) or, if the weather permits by visual separation (the controller has both a/c in sight & can maintain sep or following a/c has lead a/c in sight & can maintain sep).
Other VFR a/c, you will just receive tfc info, although that could also come with instructions like "join downwind lefthand rwXX. You are no2 to a C172 late downwind left"
*simplified for brevity.
If you mean an IFR visual approach, then you will be separated from everyone.
Rules of exactly how a controller may separate do vary slightly from country to country, however, so your best bet to get things straight in your mind is a visit to your friendly local ATC unit. Don't forget to go armed with biscuits and/or cakes!
AP
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Copenhagen
A "visual approach" is part of an instrument approach procedure and therefore you are flying under IFR rules. Otherwise it would be a VFR approach.
In class C the controller is responsible for all separation between IFR traffic and other IFR and VFR traffic.
Had it been class D the controller would only be responsible for separation from other IFR traffic and not VFR traffic.
In class C the controller is responsible for all separation between IFR traffic and other IFR and VFR traffic.
Had it been class D the controller would only be responsible for separation from other IFR traffic and not VFR traffic.
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Wales
.
Well in the UK (now including Scotland!) we have no Class C below FL195,
and also no airfields above FL195 so the problem does not occur here.
Disclaimer.... Other countries may have different class C airspace.
.
Well in the UK (now including Scotland!) we have no Class C below FL195,
and also no airfields above FL195 so the problem does not occur here.
Disclaimer.... Other countries may have different class C airspace.
.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,901
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From: On the wireless...
Originally Posted by lasseb
A "visual approach" is part of an instrument approach procedure and therefore you are flying under IFR
baleares asked:
During a Visual Approach in controlled class C who is responsible to maintain separation: the pilot or the ATC ?
Visual Approach
An approach by an IFR flight when part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the approach is executed with visual reference to terrain. (ICAO)
An approach by an IFR flight when part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the approach is executed with visual reference to terrain. (ICAO)
Within controlled airspace, standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/or Special VFR aircraft.
In Class C airspace, controllers shall provide separation between:
1. IFR flights,
2. IFR flights and VFR flights.
1. IFR flights,
2. IFR flights and VFR flights.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 356
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From: France
As said above, you are still flying under IFR during a visual approach.
So the controler must seperate you from all other traffics, which means keep you far enough acoording to his rules which are rather strict.
The pilot remains always responsible for collision avoidance, even if separated from other aircrafts.
Separate aircrafts means give them instructions so that the separation minimums will be achieved.It's the responsability of the controller, as you don't have the means to do that by yourself.
Collision avoidance means using all available ressources to avoid collision, that's always the crew's responsability
If you say "cancel IFR", then the controler still have to separate you from IFR traffic but not from VFR traffic in class C airspace.
That explains why from time to time a visual approach will be refused by the controller, because he thinks it will be difficult for him to maintain the separation minimums between you and other VFR traffic. In that case say "cancel IFR" and you will approach visually, and don't forget to log the last minutes of the flight under VFR.
So the controler must seperate you from all other traffics, which means keep you far enough acoording to his rules which are rather strict.
The pilot remains always responsible for collision avoidance, even if separated from other aircrafts.
Separate aircrafts means give them instructions so that the separation minimums will be achieved.It's the responsability of the controller, as you don't have the means to do that by yourself.
Collision avoidance means using all available ressources to avoid collision, that's always the crew's responsability
If you say "cancel IFR", then the controler still have to separate you from IFR traffic but not from VFR traffic in class C airspace.
That explains why from time to time a visual approach will be refused by the controller, because he thinks it will be difficult for him to maintain the separation minimums between you and other VFR traffic. In that case say "cancel IFR" and you will approach visually, and don't forget to log the last minutes of the flight under VFR.
Last edited by 172510; 21st September 2014 at 10:50.
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: On the wireless...
Originally Posted by 172510
from time to time a visual approach will be refused by the controller, because he thinks it will be difficult for him to maintain the separation minimums between you and other VFR traffic
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 356
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From: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by 172510
from time to time a visual approach will be refused by the controller, because he thinks it will be difficult for him to maintain the separation minimums between you and other VFR traffic
I think you mean IFR. In Class C there is no requirement to separate 'cancelled IFR' (=VFR) and VFR, but there is a requirement to separate 'cancelled IFR' (=VFR) from IFR.
Originally Posted by 172510
from time to time a visual approach will be refused by the controller, because he thinks it will be difficult for him to maintain the separation minimums between you and other VFR traffic
I think you mean IFR. In Class C there is no requirement to separate 'cancelled IFR' (=VFR) and VFR, but there is a requirement to separate 'cancelled IFR' (=VFR) from IFR.
If you cancel IFR, you become VFR, and hence the controler does not have to separate you from other VFR.
Joined: Jan 2014
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From: glendale
if you are cleared for a visual based on following traffic ahead, you will have to maintain your sep from the traffic you are following, provided you have reported it in sight and will maintain visual sep.
and you can get a visual approach at an airport that doesn't have an instrument approach procedure.
and you can get a visual approach at an airport that doesn't have an instrument approach procedure.
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Los Angeles, USA
A visual approach in FAA is IFR, but usual separation minima are now suspended. You're responsible for your own separation as long as you stay visual with either preceding traffic, or the rwy. Note - you do not have to have rwy in sight to be able accept a visual approach. All you need is preceding traffic in sight.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...C/atc0704.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...C/atc0704.html
