New Visa Requirements for Training in the U.S.A.
The Oracle
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I started this thread because there was new legislation coming and students should know about it before they head to the U.S.A. to do any training.
I have been in contact with Homeland Security and they are taking this VERY SERIOUSLY. I know there are people that are going to argue that you do not need Visas, etc. but they do not make the decisions.
Everyone needs to contact the American Embassy in their country before they plan their trip to the U.S.A. Make sure you meet all the requirements. This way your trip to the U.S.A. will be a pleasant one.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
I have been in contact with Homeland Security and they are taking this VERY SERIOUSLY. I know there are people that are going to argue that you do not need Visas, etc. but they do not make the decisions.
Everyone needs to contact the American Embassy in their country before they plan their trip to the U.S.A. Make sure you meet all the requirements. This way your trip to the U.S.A. will be a pleasant one.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Please feel free to censor my posts BRL if it'll make you happy.
(I was simply trying to make the point that whether or not someone holds a visa will make no difference to certain determined individuals).
Cheers
EA
(I was simply trying to make the point that whether or not someone holds a visa will make no difference to certain determined individuals).
Cheers
EA
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What the authorities are trying to do in the US is get a handle on people who fly small aircraft. Reading between the lines, I think GA scares the Feds ****less, but they cannot really do much about it right now as GA is just too big and powerful over here.
I suspect at the end of all this, all pilots in the US will require a FBI background check. Problem is, the procedures are not yet in place to check every pilot (though the infrastucture definitely is), and the GA community would need to go along too.
So right now the easiest start point is to check 'aliens' coming into the country before they arrive, ie make them get a visa. As this progresses, I guess the prospective foreign pilot will need to get a background check performed by the embassy in his home country. Then as the procedures mature, even US citizens will need some background check.
So eventually the homeland "anthrax nutters" will be looked at too. Doesn't mean they all will get found out of course, but some will. So yes, I think that bringing up the point that there are plenty of loons in the US who have pilots or drivers licences is relevant and valid to this thread.
I suspect at the end of all this, all pilots in the US will require a FBI background check. Problem is, the procedures are not yet in place to check every pilot (though the infrastucture definitely is), and the GA community would need to go along too.
So right now the easiest start point is to check 'aliens' coming into the country before they arrive, ie make them get a visa. As this progresses, I guess the prospective foreign pilot will need to get a background check performed by the embassy in his home country. Then as the procedures mature, even US citizens will need some background check.
So eventually the homeland "anthrax nutters" will be looked at too. Doesn't mean they all will get found out of course, but some will. So yes, I think that bringing up the point that there are plenty of loons in the US who have pilots or drivers licences is relevant and valid to this thread.
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englishal I won't censor anyones posts unless i really have to and yours i don't. I get what your saying and totally agree with you, i was just nipping a potential 'Terrorist free for all' hi-jack' (excuse the pun) of this thread. Simple really.!!!
I am not having a go at anyone personally and i am not disagreeing with anyone either, just trying to keep this thread on track as i think its a pretty important thread and don't want it going off all over the place.
I am not having a go at anyone personally and i am not disagreeing with anyone either, just trying to keep this thread on track as i think its a pretty important thread and don't want it going off all over the place.
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Fair enough BRL 
Just to stray off topic one last time
...but it is sort of related, here is a couple of extracts from AOPA regarding foreign students .....
FOREIGN FLIGHT STUDENTS FACE NEW RULES
The expansion of an existing law will better track foreign nationals including flight students and will allow flight schools dependent on foreign students to return to normal operations. According to U.S. officials, those "high risk" visitors who wish to remain in the United States for more than 30 days for flight training will undergo registration, fingerprinting, and will be photographed. Unlike the state of Michigan, which recently passed legislation requiring U.S. student pilots to undergo rigorous State Department and FBI background checks, this federally imposed law will focus on the foreign pilot population rather than imposing a burden on the U.S. flight-training community. In a recent letter to the governor of New Jersey, AOPA President Phil Boyer said, "A more logical approach to addressing aviation security and airman requirements should be left to the federal government to implement, something that is occurring now." In addition, Boyer pointed out that flight training is regulated by the FAA, not individual states. AOPA continues to urge other states to stop any legislation that would unnecessarily hinder the training of U.S. students and jeopardize the future of the aviation economy in the United States.
Just to stray off topic one last time
...but it is sort of related, here is a couple of extracts from AOPA regarding foreign students .....FOREIGN FLIGHT STUDENTS FACE NEW RULES
The expansion of an existing law will better track foreign nationals including flight students and will allow flight schools dependent on foreign students to return to normal operations. According to U.S. officials, those "high risk" visitors who wish to remain in the United States for more than 30 days for flight training will undergo registration, fingerprinting, and will be photographed. Unlike the state of Michigan, which recently passed legislation requiring U.S. student pilots to undergo rigorous State Department and FBI background checks, this federally imposed law will focus on the foreign pilot population rather than imposing a burden on the U.S. flight-training community. In a recent letter to the governor of New Jersey, AOPA President Phil Boyer said, "A more logical approach to addressing aviation security and airman requirements should be left to the federal government to implement, something that is occurring now." In addition, Boyer pointed out that flight training is regulated by the FAA, not individual states. AOPA continues to urge other states to stop any legislation that would unnecessarily hinder the training of U.S. students and jeopardize the future of the aviation economy in the United States.
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Seeking clarification:
Can somebody (Capt. Gentil?) please summarise the visa requirements for the following situation, which I think describes a lot of us:
FAA or CAA PPL holder goes to the US for a couple of weeks and gets checked out in a light aircraft. They then proceed to tour a part of the country in the aircraft for most of their stay. Can they do so on the visa waiver or tourist visa? Or do they need a student visa?
And another situation particular to my case:
Aforementioned PPL holder's fiancee decides to do a "pinch-hitter" course involving 4-6 hrs, to guard against the PPL conking out whilst flying. Can she do so on the waiver or tourist visa?
Thanks in advance,
Emmanuel
Can somebody (Capt. Gentil?) please summarise the visa requirements for the following situation, which I think describes a lot of us:
FAA or CAA PPL holder goes to the US for a couple of weeks and gets checked out in a light aircraft. They then proceed to tour a part of the country in the aircraft for most of their stay. Can they do so on the visa waiver or tourist visa? Or do they need a student visa?
And another situation particular to my case:
Aforementioned PPL holder's fiancee decides to do a "pinch-hitter" course involving 4-6 hrs, to guard against the PPL conking out whilst flying. Can she do so on the waiver or tourist visa?
Thanks in advance,
Emmanuel
The Oracle
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I just had a lengthy meeting with Homeland Security. After discussions over the last several weeks they finally came with answers to my questions.
If someone wants to come to the U.S.A. to build hours or do any other pleasure flying they are ok to enter the country on the Visa Waiver Program and have a holiday flying.
As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver. The 18 hours of study per week loophole has been removed. If you are going to train in the U.S.A. after April 12, 2002 you MUST BE ON A F-1, M-1, or J--1 Visa.
Here is a printable link to the new Regulation:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Here is some of the points in the new code:
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to the moderators, I have posted this on the threads in Wannabes and Private Flying.]
If someone wants to come to the U.S.A. to build hours or do any other pleasure flying they are ok to enter the country on the Visa Waiver Program and have a holiday flying.
As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver. The 18 hours of study per week loophole has been removed. If you are going to train in the U.S.A. after April 12, 2002 you MUST BE ON A F-1, M-1, or J--1 Visa.
Here is a printable link to the new Regulation:
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Here is some of the points in the new code:
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Immigration and Naturalization Service
8 CFR Parts 214 and 248
[INS No. 2195-02]
RIN 1115-AG60
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice.
Immigration and Naturalization Service
8 CFR Parts 214 and 248
[INS No. 2195-02]
RIN 1115-AG60
Requiring Change of Status From B to F-1 or M-1 Nonimmigrant
Prior to Pursuing a Course of Study
AGENCY: Immigration and Naturalization Service, Justice.
SUMMARY: This interim rule amends the Immigration and Naturalization Service (Service) regulations by eliminating the current provision allowing a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant visitor for business or pleasure to begin attending school without first obtaining approval of a change of nonimmigrant status request from the Service. This change will enhance the Service's ability to support the national security needs of the United States and is within the Service's authority under section 248 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (Act). The amendment will ensure that no B nonimmigrant is allowed to enroll in school until the alien has applied for, and the Service has approved, a change of nonimmigrant status to that of F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant student.
DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002.
DATES: Effective date: This interim rule is effective April 12, 2002.
What Is the Service Changing in This Interim Rule?
The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the
United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.
Why Is the Service Instituting This Change?
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.
The Service is eliminating the ability of an alien admitted to the
United States as a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant to begin attending classes without first applying to the Service, and obtaining the Service's prior approval, for a change of nonimmigrant status to that of an F or M nonimmigrant student. This rule expressly prohibits a B nonimmigrant from enrolling in a course of study or taking other actions inconsistent with B nonimmigrant status unless and until the Service has approved the B nonimmigrant's change to an appropriate student nonimmigrant status.
Why Is the Service Instituting This Change?
The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, highlight the need of the Service to maintain greater control over the ability of an alien to change nonimmigrant status once the alien has been admitted to the United States. This interim rule will allow the Service to fully review any request from a B nonimmigrant to change nonimmigrant status to that of full-time student before allowing the alien to enroll in a Service-approved school. The elimination of the ability of a B nonimmigrant to begin classes before receiving the Service's approval of the change of nonimmigrant status is also consistent with the Act's requirement in section 101(a)(15)(B) that a B nonimmigrant not be a person coming to the United States for the purpose of study.
The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.
Dated: April 9, 2002.
James W. Ziglar,
Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[FR Doc. 02-8926 Filed 4-9-02; 1:54 pm]
BILLING CODE 4410-10-P
James W. Ziglar,
Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service.
[FR Doc. 02-8926 Filed 4-9-02; 1:54 pm]
BILLING CODE 4410-10-P
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
[Note to the moderators, I have posted this on the threads in Wannabes and Private Flying.]
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most US schools want to do nothing other than give you training in return for cash. Not a bad thing per say....
...but it's nice to see a school giving something back here by way of researched advice. Whilst that doesmnt guarantee they'll be the best trainers in the US, I'm guessing that they v.definitely will be cut above.
...but it's nice to see a school giving something back here by way of researched advice. Whilst that doesmnt guarantee they'll be the best trainers in the US, I'm guessing that they v.definitely will be cut above.
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As of April 12, 2002 no person can enter the U.S.A. and train on a Tourist Visa or a Visa Waiver
Where does it say in any document that you cannot 'train'? All I see is that if you want to enroll in a school but your immigration status does not permit that, you now have to first wait for INS approval. They are closing what appears to be a loophole.
enroll in a school
enroll in a course of study
What is a 'school' for INS purposes? I would say it was a 'school' if it could issue an I-20. If it doesn't have that INS approval, then surely it is not a school.
What if I am a freelance CFI who teaches people to fly in my own plane? No school, no course of study (Part 61), no enrollment. I certainly cannot issue an I-20.
So lets say you entered the USA on a student visa, with the purposes of learning to fly under Part 61 (so not at an approved school). Isn't that behaviour inconsistent with your immigration status? If so, that's illegal and might get you deported and banned!
Are you saying it's now illegal for anybody to learn to fly with somebody who is not an educational establishment authorised by the INS?
Is it forbidden for me to take a CFI on a hour cross country flight so he can 'train' me on local procedures? Isn't hour building 'training'? You specifically said that sort of thing was OK.
I am sure regulations which specifically cover flight training are coming, but is this is one of them?
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
You did ask
Cheers
Where does it say in any document that you cannot 'train'? All I see is that if you want to enroll in a school but your immigration status does not permit that, you now have to first wait for INS approval. They are closing what appears to be a loophole.
enroll in a school
enroll in a course of study
What is a 'school' for INS purposes? I would say it was a 'school' if it could issue an I-20. If it doesn't have that INS approval, then surely it is not a school.
What if I am a freelance CFI who teaches people to fly in my own plane? No school, no course of study (Part 61), no enrollment. I certainly cannot issue an I-20.
So lets say you entered the USA on a student visa, with the purposes of learning to fly under Part 61 (so not at an approved school). Isn't that behaviour inconsistent with your immigration status? If so, that's illegal and might get you deported and banned!
Are you saying it's now illegal for anybody to learn to fly with somebody who is not an educational establishment authorised by the INS?
Is it forbidden for me to take a CFI on a hour cross country flight so he can 'train' me on local procedures? Isn't hour building 'training'? You specifically said that sort of thing was OK.
I am sure regulations which specifically cover flight training are coming, but is this is one of them?
If anyone has questions, please ask me and I endeavor to get the answers from my contacts in Homeland Security.
You did ask
Cheers
The Oracle
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slim_slag,
Anyone who is not a U.S. Citizen and does not have resident status wanting to train in the U.S.A. for a license or rating is required to be on a student Visa.
If you have your own airplane and want to train a student from the U.K., for example, for an F.A.A. Part 61 Private Pilot License, you will have to have visa authority and the student will have to have a student Visa. Without it you CANNOT train that student.
Look at the language in the rule:
INS is having anyone (Non U.S.) who is going to flight train in the U.S.A. checked out prior to commencing any flight training. The way INS does this is with a Student Visa. The officers from Homeland Security were very clear on this point today.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Anyone who is not a U.S. Citizen and does not have resident status wanting to train in the U.S.A. for a license or rating is required to be on a student Visa.
If you have your own airplane and want to train a student from the U.K., for example, for an F.A.A. Part 61 Private Pilot License, you will have to have visa authority and the student will have to have a student Visa. Without it you CANNOT train that student.
Look at the language in the rule:
The Service's implementation of this rule as an interim rule, with provisions for post-promulgation public comments, is based on the "good cause'' exceptions found at 5 U.S.C. 553(b)(B) and (d)(3). The reason and necessity for the immediate promulgation of this rule are as follows: The rule is necessary to ensure the national security of the United States by eliminating the ability of a B nonimmigrant to enroll in school until the Service has approved a change of nonimmigrant status application filed by the prospective alien student. The previous rule allowing such enrollment prior to adjudication of the application was used by some of the September 11th terrorists to obtain flight training in the United States. Closing this loophole is essential to efforts to prevent this abuse from recurring.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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INS is having anyone (Non U.S.) who is going to flight train in the U.S.A. checked out prior to commencing any flight training. The way INS does this is with a Student Visa. The officers from Homeland Security were very clear on this point today.
Well, if that's specifically what they said, it must be true. It would not surprise me and I think it's coming, but the document you cited does not state that.
I put another question up in Wannabes, I guess you are getting to that now....
Cheers,
Well, if that's specifically what they said, it must be true. It would not surprise me and I think it's coming, but the document you cited does not state that.
I put another question up in Wannabes, I guess you are getting to that now....
Cheers,
The Oracle
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On the Fourth of July Saddam's stepson tried to enter the country in order to do flight training. Here is the article and a quote.
Saddam's stepson arrested in Miami on immigration charges
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Saddam's stepson arrested in Miami on immigration charges
Saddam Hussein's stepson was arrested Wednesday on immigration charges in Florida, where he had enrolled to take classes at a flight school, federal authorities said.
According to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Iraqi leader's stepson was traveling as a tourist and had not applied for a student visa that would have allowed him to take courses.
According to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Iraqi leader's stepson was traveling as a tourist and had not applied for a student visa that would have allowed him to take courses.
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Richard, if I come over and you do my BFR and checkflight (again) prior to me hiring from you for a few hours / days as part of my holiday do I need a visa (I hold a CAA PPL & FAA PPL based on my CAA PPL)?
If you are able to give a clear answer to this I think it will help many of us carify this aspect.
If you are able to give a clear answer to this I think it will help many of us carify this aspect.
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Bouncy Landing,
If you come over to do some holiday flying and are not looking to add a rating or license you are fine. The checkout is for insurance purposes and that is allowed. The BFR is for currency so for now, that is allowed. (There has been talk about requiring a Visa for the BFR but there is a strong voice in the government opposed to requiring a Visa.)
If you are here and then decide to add a night rating, as an example, you would need to change your status prior to training. If you are on a Visa Waiver, you will not be able to change your status since you do not have a visa and you waved all your rights when you entered the country.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
If you come over to do some holiday flying and are not looking to add a rating or license you are fine. The checkout is for insurance purposes and that is allowed. The BFR is for currency so for now, that is allowed. (There has been talk about requiring a Visa for the BFR but there is a strong voice in the government opposed to requiring a Visa.)
If you are here and then decide to add a night rating, as an example, you would need to change your status prior to training. If you are on a Visa Waiver, you will not be able to change your status since you do not have a visa and you waved all your rights when you entered the country.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Sounds like nothing but a big hassle to me.
If I were travelling from the UK (or elsewhere in the EC) with the primary intention of building hours, I would probably avoid the aggravation and go to Canada or Australia. It would be a shame not to be able to take advantage of whatever opportunities might present themselves to qualify for a new rating, simply because of these new visa restrictions.
If I was just a tourism and might have the chance to squeeze in a couple of hours, I would not be deterred from going to the USA ... it's still a great country to visit.
Can't really blame the Feds I guess. It is just too bad that it had to come to this.
If I were travelling from the UK (or elsewhere in the EC) with the primary intention of building hours, I would probably avoid the aggravation and go to Canada or Australia. It would be a shame not to be able to take advantage of whatever opportunities might present themselves to qualify for a new rating, simply because of these new visa restrictions.
If I was just a tourism and might have the chance to squeeze in a couple of hours, I would not be deterred from going to the USA ... it's still a great country to visit.
Can't really blame the Feds I guess. It is just too bad that it had to come to this.
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MLS-12D
No hassle with the Visa mate.
It is purely pop in the bank with their paying in slip (46 quid) then send this to the US Embassy with your passport, the INS I-20 form that the school sends you, plus another form you fill out that the school sends you. Paperwork filling should take 5 minutes.
You will get you visa back in the post 5 business days later.
The only time it will be a hassle is if you have a record.
If you are going to Canada then you might as well stay at home
It is purely pop in the bank with their paying in slip (46 quid) then send this to the US Embassy with your passport, the INS I-20 form that the school sends you, plus another form you fill out that the school sends you. Paperwork filling should take 5 minutes.
You will get you visa back in the post 5 business days later.
The only time it will be a hassle is if you have a record.
If you are going to Canada then you might as well stay at home
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YO! I have a question
I have to be honest with you guys. I haven't read every single post in this thread because its mainly about tourist visa. I on the other hand have a differen't visa problem.
I'm a foreign citizen living in the US on a R/I Visa (journalist visa). Valid for 5 years. From my understanding it is the most privileged visa. With this thing i can go to press conferences were, i suppose, important US political people speak. Or get into trade shows were only press people get into. Anyhow, ...
Now the question: Does the R/I visa eliminate the need for a Student Visa to fly aircraft (because it is obviously better than a tourist visa), or would i still have to get a student visa to fly planes?
This isn't to clear to me. If it has been already posted somewhere, please just link me to it. Thanks!
The local 141 school i attended did let me attend their school on this visa last year without making me 'degrade' to a student visa. I hope nothing has changed though.
Any of you experts know?
Thanks!
** edit : I'd ask the INS but quite frankly, i'm afraid they'll kick my ass. They'd probably get suspicious and paranoid about me or something. If it were not allowed, i broke the law (because i flew at the local FBO this year - they didn't even check my visa) and they might send me home
.
I have to be honest with you guys. I haven't read every single post in this thread because its mainly about tourist visa. I on the other hand have a differen't visa problem.
I'm a foreign citizen living in the US on a R/I Visa (journalist visa). Valid for 5 years. From my understanding it is the most privileged visa. With this thing i can go to press conferences were, i suppose, important US political people speak. Or get into trade shows were only press people get into. Anyhow, ...
Now the question: Does the R/I visa eliminate the need for a Student Visa to fly aircraft (because it is obviously better than a tourist visa), or would i still have to get a student visa to fly planes?
This isn't to clear to me. If it has been already posted somewhere, please just link me to it. Thanks!
The local 141 school i attended did let me attend their school on this visa last year without making me 'degrade' to a student visa. I hope nothing has changed though.
Any of you experts know?
Thanks!
** edit : I'd ask the INS but quite frankly, i'm afraid they'll kick my ass. They'd probably get suspicious and paranoid about me or something. If it were not allowed, i broke the law (because i flew at the local FBO this year - they didn't even check my visa) and they might send me home
.
Last edited by mattpilot; 12th Jul 2002 at 04:28.
The Oracle
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mattpilot,
Go back to page 2 of this thread and look at what I posted 27th June 2002 18:00.
That should answer your questions. The summary is: Yes you have to change your Visa Status and you cannot train until you have the new Visa.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Go back to page 2 of this thread and look at what I posted 27th June 2002 18:00.
That should answer your questions. The summary is: Yes you have to change your Visa Status and you cannot train until you have the new Visa.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.