Quick Thom book 7 question
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Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Chichester, UK
Quick Thom book 7 question
Hi chaps,
RT Theory is the last of the exams (hurrah!), so I've just started reading Thom book 7 and CAP413 (I've got copies of both). I find Thom by far the more readable of the two, but it seems to contain errors - e.g. when taking off at an aerodrome with FIS we have
G-TC ready for departure
G-TC take off at your discretion, surface wind is zero niner zero at one one knots
take off my discretion, G-TC
(page 149)
Flying out of a FIS aerodrome I know this is one is wrong - but how many more? Does anyone (with good RT
) think that the Thom book is any good? I'd rather use it, but not if I'm going to have to permanently cross-reference with CAP413 - in that case I'll bite the bullet and read the dull one
One possiblility is that I may have an out of date Thom - anyone know if CAP413 has changed this recently? My copy of Thom is (c) 2000 - 'Second revised edition'
Cheers
RT Theory is the last of the exams (hurrah!), so I've just started reading Thom book 7 and CAP413 (I've got copies of both). I find Thom by far the more readable of the two, but it seems to contain errors - e.g. when taking off at an aerodrome with FIS we have
G-TC ready for departure
G-TC take off at your discretion, surface wind is zero niner zero at one one knots
take off my discretion, G-TC
(page 149)
Flying out of a FIS aerodrome I know this is one is wrong - but how many more? Does anyone (with good RT
) think that the Thom book is any good? I'd rather use it, but not if I'm going to have to permanently cross-reference with CAP413 - in that case I'll bite the bullet and read the dull one One possiblility is that I may have an out of date Thom - anyone know if CAP413 has changed this recently? My copy of Thom is (c) 2000 - 'Second revised edition'
Cheers
Last edited by Evo7; 22nd May 2002 at 10:37.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Milton Keynes, UK
You can view the latest version of CAP413 online, if you have Acrobat Reader. CAP413 is here - and its free! As I remember you do readback "At my discretion", the theory being you are acknowledging that it is your decision to take-off, not the chap in the tower.... But I'm willing to be proved wrong!
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
There are 3 very different ways of doign R/T:
[list=1][*]The Trevor Thom way[*]The CAP413 way[*]The way everyone does it in practice[/list=1]
The first one is no use at all - the only Thom book I wouldn't recommend using. The second one is the way you must learn it for the exam. The third way is the way you should learn it for everything apart from the exam.
Ok, so they're not completely different - but how many times have you ever heard anyone giving a position report as CAP413 says you should? But there's always a question on it in the exam. (When I was preparing for this exam, I spoke to a pilot who tried giving a position report "correctly" just to see what would happen, and ATC didn't have a clue what she was talking about!)
FFF
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[list=1][*]The Trevor Thom way[*]The CAP413 way[*]The way everyone does it in practice[/list=1]
The first one is no use at all - the only Thom book I wouldn't recommend using. The second one is the way you must learn it for the exam. The third way is the way you should learn it for everything apart from the exam.
Ok, so they're not completely different - but how many times have you ever heard anyone giving a position report as CAP413 says you should? But there's always a question on it in the exam. (When I was preparing for this exam, I spoke to a pilot who tried giving a position report "correctly" just to see what would happen, and ATC didn't have a clue what she was talking about!)
FFF
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 716
Likes: 7
From: London
On that particular point, my home field club said don't read back the 'my discretion' bit. I would agree - reading back a non specific instruction doesn't seem to make sense
kind of...
"hell Joe, we told that dang aircraft to do what he liked, but now he's not readback, who knows what he'll do?"
kind of...
"hell Joe, we told that dang aircraft to do what he liked, but now he's not readback, who knows what he'll do?"
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Chichester, UK
My understanding is that when the FISO has said "...at your discretion..." he is just saying "I don't know of any reason why you shouldn't take off but I cannot clear you so do what you think is best". Your reply is telling him what you're doing - so no "at my discretion".
You don't have to take off - you might have seen the formation of 15 Yaks that have just turned up on short final for a run and break - replying "Holding at my discretion, G-TC" would sound silly...
You don't have to take off - you might have seen the formation of 15 Yaks that have just turned up on short final for a run and break - replying "Holding at my discretion, G-TC" would sound silly...
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
Quote from CAA Safety Sense leaflet 22, Radio Telephony'....
"The phrase 'At your descretion' may be used by a FISO and will follow any advisory information. Pilots requesting departure may be advised:
'Take off at your descretion' or 'Depart at you descretion'
The pilot should not respond by repeating the phrase 'at my descretion' . No clearance has been given, there is no requirement to read ohne back. The Pilot should simply respond 'G-XX roger' or 'G-XX' "...
Think this makes it pretty plain. The CAA Safety Sense leaflets are downloadable from the CAA website and contain loads of useful information. There is also a great VFR guide which is worth reading.
Cheers
EA
[edited for my crap spelling]
"The phrase 'At your descretion' may be used by a FISO and will follow any advisory information. Pilots requesting departure may be advised:
'Take off at your descretion' or 'Depart at you descretion'
The pilot should not respond by repeating the phrase 'at my descretion' . No clearance has been given, there is no requirement to read ohne back. The Pilot should simply respond 'G-XX roger' or 'G-XX' "...
Think this makes it pretty plain. The CAA Safety Sense leaflets are downloadable from the CAA website and contain loads of useful information. There is also a great VFR guide which is worth reading.
Cheers
EA
[edited for my crap spelling]
Last edited by englishal; 22nd May 2002 at 14:36.
Thread Starter
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From: Chichester, UK
CAP413 Chapter 4, page 15: Examples of FISO phraseology (Aerodromes) says -
(Aircraft reports ready for departure)
FISO: (Callsign) surface wind is ... take off at your discretion
Aircraft: taking off (Callsign)
Be nice if the CAA could agree with itself...
(Aircraft reports ready for departure)
FISO: (Callsign) surface wind is ... take off at your discretion
Aircraft: taking off (Callsign)
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
Be nice if the CAA could agree with itself...
As I said, I'd go by what CAP413 says for the purposes of the R/T test.
Although I think if two CAA documents disagree, you'd be very unfortunate to get both answers in a multi-choice written test. And for the practical test, I can't see an examiner failing you if you use either of the suggested phraseologies. Seems like a lot of fuss about not very much to me.
FFF
-----------------
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From: ooop North
As stated above, "Take off at your discretion" is not a clearance, and therefore should not be read back.
The most correct legal reply is "Roger"
A sensible reply however might be "taking off" or "holding for the xxxxx".
The most correct legal reply is "Roger"
A sensible reply however might be "taking off" or "holding for the xxxxx".
