Practicalities of flying in IMC outside controlled airspace in UK

[Curtis E Carr]

Not always obligatory. See third quote above.

[phiggsbroadband]

For lots of GA aircraft, the concept of a Semi-Circular Cruising Level is all a bit academic.
Take for example a Slingsby T67M flying from North Wales to South Wales, who wants to reach 8000ft to cruise. At 400ft/min this climb will take him 20 minutes. So 2/3 of the 90 nm trip will comprise climbing or descending with just 1/3 (20 minutes) at the semi-circular cruising level.
By the time you add in all the dodging under or over controlled airspace, not much of the trip will be in level flight.

[piperarcher]

Yes, this the dilemna of having an IMCr. No guaranteed radar service unlike our more privileged friends with a full IR. On a bad weather day you are more likely to get a traffic service than a 'basic service due controller workload'. Its the risk you take to be honest.

I occasionally fly in IMC according to IFR rules without a traffic service, but being in the South East of the UK, there is slim chance that Farnborough will give you a warning of a potential collision - though absolutely no guarantees. If I do fly in IMC, it is to get through some cloud and fly on top in clear air. I wouldnt do prolonged flight in cloud without a traffic service, and I'd avoid gliding sites. It is a case of risk management and weighing up the odds.

[Curtis E Carr]

Yes, this the dilemna of having an IMCr. No guaranteed radar service unlike our more privileged friends with a full IR.

Are you suggesting that if one is the holder of an IR, one is guaranteed to receive a radar service?

[piperarcher]

Are you suggesting that if one is the holder of an IR, one is guaranteed to receive a radar service?

OK, I cant guaranteee anything, slightly poor phrase. But OCAS, but with an IR (assumming aircraft capabilities and no icing issue), you can file a flight plan, get clearance (not always quickly I accept) to enter CAS, and there, you are more likely to be able to get a traffic service for the majority of your journey. In the UK, I am talking 'London Control'.

With an IMCr, sure you might sometimes be approved to enter some CAS with restrictions, but invariably you will still be in class G, and its hit and miss if a) any of the LARS military zones are open and able to give you a service b) in the South, Farnborough LARS has at least one controller for each of the 3 zones (sometimes there is one person covering two zones), and isnt maxxed out with lots of other GA traffic and only capable of giving you a basic service.

[Johnm]

If you file IFR and route in controlled airspace you aren't getting a traffic service you are getting a radar control service.

[ShyTorque]

PA, most corporate helicopters are obliged to operate outside CAS in the way that you perhaps believe to be second best and therefore "reserved" for IMCR only rated pilots. Departing from and arriving at private helicopter landing sites, it's the only practical way it can be done. It's not necessary to file a flight plan, we just get on with it.

[thing]

If you file IFR and route in controlled airspace you aren't getting a traffic service you are getting a radar control service.

You get a radar service no matter what service you are on, hence 'G-**** you are now under radar control' when you enter CAS. It differs on what they are obliged to tell you but it's still radar control and thou does as thou is toldeth.

[xtophe80]

It is only 130.4 MHz for glider cloud flying

[Pace]

Don't forget that it is not just light aircraft that operate out of CAS IFR with no radar coverage. Even a 737 flying into an airport like EGAE (Londonderry once leaving the BEL VOR is out of CAS out of radar coverage and positioning for a procedural approach and landing.

I used to fly into Londonderry in a twin and on a number of occasions was told to take up the hold to await my turn at the procedure. Once I had a 737 holding above and another aircraft below all relying on each other to be where we say we are and no real confirmation other than TCAS readouts

Pace

[Romeo Tango]

I am perfectly happy to fly IMC/IFR outside controlled airspace, usually without a service but squawking 7000. It is a VERY good risk.

[Pace]

There are obviously risks even if small! I posted sometime ago about a near miss with a Glider flying in cloud. I was descending from 10K well south of a known glider sight and was close enough to see the glider flash past in cloud.

That was the only very near miss I had in IMC in 30 years of flying.
I have also had two near misses in VMC VFR so I do not expect the risks are any higher.

There are precautions you can take. Fly High especially above cloud if possible or High in cloud as the chances of anyone being in your airspace are less.
invest in TCAS as it will at least alert you to other transponding aircraft.

Beware breaking cloud as often just under the cloud base is where you will find a lot of aircraft and gliders.
Bad weather days are usually days where only the have to fly guys will be up so chances of hitting one are small.

Communicate!!!!!!! vitally important to be on the correct frequency and listening out for other traffic at or around your level If you hear such an aircraft communicate a position and level report etc.

i have flown top to bottom in Africa and even airways communication is vital with position reports and estimates forget radar in those areas you often do not even have radio contact having to relay to airlines above.

So flying IFR OCAS in IMC probably has no greater collision risk than flying VFR in VMC Just reduce that risk by taking a few precautions

Pace

[piperarcher]

Do glider pilots flying in clouds have an IMCr or some other qualification that allows them to fly without sight of the surface?

[ShyTorque]

They have "another qualification" and fly with it strapped it to their backs.

[Pace]

We all have a right to the Sky and there have been long discussions previously on this.

Think they are treated as a special case by the authorities as no they do not have instrument flying qualifications and it would be almost impossible for them to fly to IFR rules because of inability to maintain altitude (usually)

It would be better if they had a transponder but few do for various reasons!
But yes you will find gliders in cloud as well as circling around the bases.

I always thought it was double standards to allow non instrument qualified pilots to fly non instrument equipped and non IFR capable aircraft in IMC while declining IMCR rated pilots with highly equipped homebuilts the same privileges which they are allowed to do in the USA.

But hey thats life loads of things are not fair

Pace

[piperarcher]

I always thought it was double standards to allow non instrument qualified pilots to fly non instrument equipped and non IFR capable aircraft in IMC

My thoughts exactly. Regardless of statistics it would 'feel' safer flying in IMC OCAS, if the only other aircraft in there were IMCr/IR qualified pilots, with appropriately categorised aircraft, and ALL had their transponders on. We all have a right to the sky, but when it comes to a potentially dangerous area of the sky like a cloud, the only people really with rights should be those qualified and transponding. Where one cant get a radar service, or one doesnt have an expensive TCAS (I'm talking the proper ones at £10k), it would be a bit safer if clouds didnt potentially contain gliders. Nothing against gliders as such, but its sort of one law for one, another law for another, and its unsafe, especially if they are not transponding or only using FLARM to see each other.

It's like mandating that car lights have to be switched in dark and low visibility conditions, but allowing motorbikes or some other vehicle randomly free access to go up and down the motorway whichever way they like, with their lights off, donnned completely in dark attire.

[Pace]

But then I don't think there have been IMC collisions with gliders and powered aircraft so on the whole the big sky theory must work?
My experience must have been one of the closest calls
Nevertheless there have been good VMC collisions between gliders and powered aircraft one even in CAS where gliders are also allowed to go (still? )

Pace

[Jim59]

Do glider pilots flying in clouds have an IMCr or some other qualification that allows them to fly without sight of the surface?

Under current UK regulations they do not have to. In practice probably the majority of sailplane pilots that fly in cloud hold, or have held, an aeroplane instrument qualification.

The derogation from European rules ends 7th April 2015. Before then new rules will be in force providing for the EIR (En-route Instrument Rating) for power pilots and SCFR (Sailplane Cloud Flying Rating) for sailplane pilots.

Once the new rules are in place then sailplane pilots will require the SCFR to fly in cloud. There is a theoretical and flight training syllabus to be completed at an ATO followed by a skills test with an EASA examiner.

[soaringhigh650]

Airprox 2013071 highlights the importance of obtaining a Deconfliction Service in IMC.

[mad_jock]

The airprox board are in cloud cuckoo land if they think GA is going to get a deconfliction service. Which is why most don't bother to ask for it.