NDB approaches in light aircraft

[olasek]

Why can't people just accept it as another "Get out of jail" card in their tool-box?

Because some people operate in realities of practical world around them, I am not aware of a single NDB approach within 250 nm radius of my home base (frankly I doubt there is one left in my whole state of CA though I could be wrong). Yes, IF I were on low fuel and IF and IF ... there would have to be convergence of lot of IFs for me to ever consider NDB approach. And since FAA is decommissioning more and more NDBs every year it becomes almost a statistical impossibility that I every have a chance to shoot NDB, I probably have a higher chance finding myself at the North Pole. Also some people try to limit what's in their tool box to what actually they have a chance to practice in real aircraft.

[mad_jock]

The practical world doesn't stop at the US border. And there is loads of the things else where.

You have a license to operate world wide. The fact you don't use this ability is neither here nor there its still one of the basic skill sets you need to have to be able to operate globally.

[thing]

If you were stuck in cloud low on fuel and the nearest strip only had an NDB and you had an ADF, I think you would consider it worth your while! Why can't people just accept it as another "Get out of jail" card in their tool-box?

I don't think anyone is disputing that. It's not a 'I don't do them/I do do them' issue.

I might add that if you were low on fuel and stuck in cloud then some decision making processes had gone seriously wrong somewhere.

[olasek]

have to be able to operate globally.

I am going to disappoint you - I have zero ambition to operate 'globally'. Nobody pays me to fly, I pay out of my own pocket which further limits the radius of my flying.

[mad_jock]

Well lobby the FAA to give you a instrument rating which is US only and doesn't require NDB knowledge then.

[thing]

I am going to disappoint you - I have zero ambition to operate 'globally'. Nobody pays me to fly, I pay out of my own pocket which further limits the radius of my flying.

I share your sentiments, I feel that the majority of people who read or post here think the same. It's great to have pro pilots here sharing their experience, it's priceless really but I sometimes think that it's forgotten that the vast majority of us fly because it's fun and we pay top dollar for it. I fully envisage myself in ten years time still popping down to Fenland for a baguette on a nice summers day, the same as I shall be fishing the same spot on the Trent. I do it because I like it, not because I have to get the mail to Reno in a blizzard.

[porterhouse]

Well lobby the FAA to give you a instrument rating which is US only and doesn't require NDB knowledge then.

FAA no longer requires NDB approach in their IFR practical exam. And why on earth we would want to 'lobby' FAA to impose more 'restrictions', the last I checked AOPA is lobbying for this or that but not to 'restrict' or 'limit'

[RTN11]

The UK test only requires a non-precision approach, could be VOR or localiser DME, but NDBs are still in the syllabus, and should be taught properly and fully understood.

Is that the case in FAA, or are NDBs not even in the syllabus?

[olasek]

Is that the case in FAA, or are NDBs not even in the syllabus?

Yes, they are still in textbooks and you might see a question or two on the written test. But since in vast parts of the country there would be no way to even practice such approaches you can fill in the rest ...

[Desert185]

I pulled the ADF out of the 185 a few years ago. Even though going through Canada to AK and back might allow its use, I found myself only using it for talk radio. With GPS and no interest in going IFR (I do that enough at work to satisfy any cravings), I decided to lighten the EW by 10#.

Fixed card or RMI, I always enjoyed doing an NDB approach, but there is no practical need for it anymore, at least in my world. The indicator does make a nostalgic bookend, though.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by mad_jock

The practical world doesn't stop at the US border. And there is loads of the things else where.

You have a license to operate world wide. The fact you don't use this ability is neither here nor there its still one of the basic skill sets you need to have to be able to operate globally.

The reality is the requirement to be able to use an ADF has now become unnecessary for flying in North America if your airplane is equipped with an approach approved GPS, and very few North American GA pilots are every going to fly in Europe; if only because your regulators have made it such a PITA.

I must ask how often you practice with the astro compass, a required skill in order to fly in the high arctic and a necessary skill if you are to maintain your ability to truly operate "world wide".

[olasek]

and very few North American GA pilots are every going to fly in Europe;

True, might add there are FAA-licensed pilot flying on N-registered aircraft in Europe on spanking brand new Cirruses without ADFs and though they are not operating 'globally' they are operating significantly outside of US borders. I personally know a few such pilots flying in Poland. Somehow they manage to survive with no ADF in the part of the world where it still could be helpful but I bet they don't read this forum to tell them what they should have or know ...

[Desert185]

I must ask how often you practice with the astro compass, a required skill in order to fly in the high arctic and a necessary skill if you are to maintain your ability to truly operate "world wide".

Astro compass? GPS should do the trick. Yes?

[porterhouse]

Astro compass? GPS should do the trick. Yes?

As far as I know GPS coverage/accuracy over North Pole is not very good, for example Garmin warns in their manual that no pilot should attempt to use their flagship G1000 product at latitudes over 70 deg. Perhaps this number is overly conservative but in fact you better have inertial navigation at some point close to a Pole.

[mad_jock]

It falls over above 65N especially when there is moderate activity and above.

Also we do polar grid nav during the ATPL's. I believe they use laser INS's these days and portable NDB beacons for the strips. And if your operating commercially there is qualification you need to have I believe which kicks in at 70-75 N/S.

Cirrus doesn't need a ADF it has a Handle in the ceiling in cases of a NDB approach requirement.

[Johnm]

I must ask how often you practice with the astro compass, a required skill in order to fly in the high arctic and a necessary skill if you are to maintain your ability to truly operate "world wide".

Not as often as I should..... I also have bubble sextant and don't keep up to scratch on that either, though it wouldn't be a lot of use in IMC, but my aircraft isn't cleared for flight into known icing anyway

[India Four Two]

I remember I had a lot of trouble tracking outbound when I was learning NDB approaches, until my instructor gave me a very good piece of advice.

He pointed out that it's only a few miles to the threshold, so just fly the drift-corrected heading from the inbound leg and failing that, use the published track as the outbound heading. You won't be far off at the threshold.

[sapco2]

Post #98

That is an extremely valid training point JohnM has just made about his aircraft not being cleared into known icing conditions.....

If you don't have the means to de-ice in flight, then steer well clear of any cloud where the temperature inside is likely to fall below freezing would be my humble advice.

The UK restricted IR (IMC rating) is a very nice add-on qualification to boost a pilots confidence but it is only any good to him/her if its limitations are fully appreciated and adhered to.... also I wonder how many of us who teach the syllabus stress that point to our students?

No matter how good an instrument pilot you may have become, you could find yourself in BIG BIG trouble if you ignore icing levels where visible moisture is present in flight.

[Pace]

Olasek

It's easy just overlay created GPS points over the NDB approach and bingo you are in business
But I stress I am not promoting the NDB as some brilliant aid but having the ability to fly one accurately and read the winds from one track to another will make any other instrument approach a piece of cake

Pace

[AirborneAgain]

mad_jock:

don't bother with MSFS it doesn't do ADF dip.

Do you know if X-plane does?

(I haven't checked but I would hope so as it seems to be careful with other fine points. It appears to do magnetic compass accelerations/turn errors correctly and even shows ram rise on the OAT gauge.)