NDB approaches in light aircraft
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Personally I would never give up glass cockpit - it gives me superior situational awareness and I can actually spend more time thinking about the big picture (weather, fuel, alternates, etc.). But it is just a tool and can be easily abused like anything else.
Here is my choice for the instrument panel.
Dynon Avionics - SkyView Displays
Once they have mastered airplane handling skills I want them to have the most modern situational aids available.
In my opinion it is like a gun.
I would rather have a gun I don't need than need a gun I don't have.
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Quote:
I would rather have a gun I don't need than need a gun I don't have.
That's a good way to put it.
I would rather have a gun I don't need than need a gun I don't have.
That's a good way to put it.
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I would rather have a gun I don't need than need a gun I don't have
But then I got to thinking about people who allegedly fly untrained into clouds containing CBs and mountains on the theory that all their flashy gizmos will keep them safe, so perhaps there is an analogy after all ...
No I would never voluntarily fly an NDB approach for real if there was an alternative, but if there's no alternative I am, in theory, capable of doing it.
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Gertrude the W
Exactly the point you have to fly as if all your flashing Gizmos have failed and you are left with basic navigational equipment! Yes too many pilots rely on the gizmos. Anyone who can accurately fly an NDB hold offsetting for wind and then leave that hold outbound on an NDB approach again offsetting and having a good mental picture of the winds and approach and then complete an NDB approach hitting the right descent points at the right time to minima can fly anything.
i would add doing all that in IMC and turbulence! its the best training exercise you can do.
Pace
Exactly the point you have to fly as if all your flashing Gizmos have failed and you are left with basic navigational equipment! Yes too many pilots rely on the gizmos. Anyone who can accurately fly an NDB hold offsetting for wind and then leave that hold outbound on an NDB approach again offsetting and having a good mental picture of the winds and approach and then complete an NDB approach hitting the right descent points at the right time to minima can fly anything.
i would add doing all that in IMC and turbulence! its the best training exercise you can do.
Pace
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Well I flew one yesterday at PIK. We tracked MAC VOR, then came inbound from MAC, tracking the PIK NDB. I ended up 100 mts left of the beacon, and straight down the PIK runway. We then broke for a VFR let down. Very satisfying, and I was pleased at my tracking inbound. Once you understand your plus and minus, and get your SA sorted out, I think it is great instrument.
May well, when all else fails, get you out of a situation.
Oh, and had the 430 turned off!!!!
May well, when all else fails, get you out of a situation.
Oh, and had the 430 turned off!!!!
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Once you understand your plus and minus, and get your SA sorted out, I think it is great instrument.
May well, when all else fails, get you out of a situation.
Oh, and had the 430 turned off!!!!
May well, when all else fails, get you out of a situation.
Oh, and had the 430 turned off!!!!
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Its old hat technology, but it works. The fun really starts when you practice a hold over the NDB and try to visualise which sector you are in and then wonder which way to turn. Anyone got a MNEMONIC for the six versions. Think thats how you spell it?
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OK I'll bite
First ADF is not a great instrument, even with a RMI it's very difficult to get within 5 degrees at best and with night, mountain and CB effects you can follow the needles perfectly and be literally miles away from where you planned to be.
When all else fails a ADF might be of limited help but vectors from an air traffic controller will be far better, see discussions on SRA above.
Why on earth switch off the best tool to cross check whether your assumptions about where the ADF is taking you are correct?
First ADF is not a great instrument, even with a RMI it's very difficult to get within 5 degrees at best and with night, mountain and CB effects you can follow the needles perfectly and be literally miles away from where you planned to be.
When all else fails a ADF might be of limited help but vectors from an air traffic controller will be far better, see discussions on SRA above.
Why on earth switch off the best tool to cross check whether your assumptions about where the ADF is taking you are correct?
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Only the Americas is that a good way to put it. Elsewhere the right to bear arms makes about as much sense as the right to arm bears!
....back to the ADF Johnm, did you find the use of the BFO position on the ADF to be a real help sometimes?
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Pace has got it right. Outside TS there is no reason why an instrument rated pilot shouldn't be able to fly a decent NDB approach. In the past did it fairly regularly with 100 punters down the back. Its also good for situational awareness.
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johnM
i think you are missing the whole point here! In days past yes pilots used ADF/NDB in anger and had no fancy GPS displays. even I can remember when I thought it was a luxury being able to move a VOR/DME artificially onto your track instead of getting cross cuts from VOR to VOR or even NDBs to give you a fix. They were far better pilots because they had to think on the hoof with minimal equipment instead of hitting on the autopilot pressing nav and getting the aircraft to fly fancy displays which do and show everything for you.
Of course NDBs have limitations and you would not want to use them for anything but a confirmation of your GPS but what happens if one day your super Gizmo equipt television set panelled aircraft is not available and you end up flying a basic 1980 aircraft with almost original equipment? (yes they do exist) Fly that in anger in solid IMC and yes you will be a good pilot rather than an aeroplane driver
its when everything goes pear shaped that such experience will serve you well!
pace
i think you are missing the whole point here! In days past yes pilots used ADF/NDB in anger and had no fancy GPS displays. even I can remember when I thought it was a luxury being able to move a VOR/DME artificially onto your track instead of getting cross cuts from VOR to VOR or even NDBs to give you a fix. They were far better pilots because they had to think on the hoof with minimal equipment instead of hitting on the autopilot pressing nav and getting the aircraft to fly fancy displays which do and show everything for you.
Of course NDBs have limitations and you would not want to use them for anything but a confirmation of your GPS but what happens if one day your super Gizmo equipt television set panelled aircraft is not available and you end up flying a basic 1980 aircraft with almost original equipment? (yes they do exist) Fly that in anger in solid IMC and yes you will be a good pilot rather than an aeroplane driver
its when everything goes pear shaped that such experience will serve you well!
pace
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Anyone who can accurately fly an NDB hold offsetting for wind and then leave that hold outbound on an NDB approach again offsetting and having a good mental picture of the winds and approach and then complete an NDB approach hitting the right descent points at the right time to minima can fly anything.
i would add doing all that in IMC and turbulence! its the best training exercise you can do.
i would add doing all that in IMC and turbulence! its the best training exercise you can do.
One of the best flights I ever did. I really learned something about flying from that.
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I completed my IR in my Archer which was all steam gauges except for a Garmin 150 which wasn't certified. This was only possible because at that time RNAV wasn't compulsory below FL095.
I therefore flew lots and lots of NDB procedures and holds with no decent tools at all and all of it hand flown with the screens up.
The fact that I can do this doesn't make it a good thing. It also illustrates that UK IR training bears as much relationship to real world IFR flying as a course on coastal sailing does.
Those old boys flying NDB procedures in air liners weren't trying to meet PRNAV accuracy levels either!
Nope if I lose the GPS I'll get vectors and SRA thanks and if it wasn't a legal requirement to carry one the ADF would not be using valuable panel space.
I therefore flew lots and lots of NDB procedures and holds with no decent tools at all and all of it hand flown with the screens up.
The fact that I can do this doesn't make it a good thing. It also illustrates that UK IR training bears as much relationship to real world IFR flying as a course on coastal sailing does.
Those old boys flying NDB procedures in air liners weren't trying to meet PRNAV accuracy levels either!
Nope if I lose the GPS I'll get vectors and SRA thanks and if it wasn't a legal requirement to carry one the ADF would not be using valuable panel space.
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Anyone who can accurately fly an NDB hold offsetting for wind ...... can fly anything.
They were far better pilots because they had to think on the hoof
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OK I'll bite
You are quite correct, following the needles on an NDB procedure, will get you totally lost. Fly a heading Johnm, do not follow the needles. Understand what you are doing.
Vectors from ATC, what if you are out of range, your radio fails, and all you have is your RBI?
The best tool was switched off, because we like to keep very current on all our Nav aids. Don't forget, we could have switched it back on again, but then I am very IR proficient, so was confident of my SA. The flight would not have been so satisfying. Horses for courses though...
You state you have an IR. you should know then the full range of NDB let downs, you may have do do one on your revalidation. Or does your CFI not do these?
Look, flying, in IFR, all the cockpit tools should be practiced, you should keep current on all aids, including the much maligned ADF/NDB, it may just save your life one day. But hey, with all your GPS gizmos, you would never get in trouble, would you
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Porterhouse
Brilliant idea
Then we might stop getting all these tragic accidents which are happening more and more to pilots driving television screens around the sky!
First sign of trouble and they fall out of the clouds like flies ! Read the accident reports on the Cirrus makes sobering reading!
So yes to good old fashioned handling abilities!
JohnM
Sounds like you had well rounded training
Pace
Brilliant idea
Then we might stop getting all these tragic accidents which are happening more and more to pilots driving television screens around the sky!First sign of trouble and they fall out of the clouds like flies ! Read the accident reports on the Cirrus makes sobering reading!
So yes to good old fashioned handling abilities!
JohnM
Sounds like you had well rounded training
Pace
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Did my full IR in a duchess with a Garmin 430 fitted, but only one of my three instructors showed me anything about it (although I had read the manual) and the general advice I had was not to use it at all for the test.
I then pass said test, but in the debrief the examiner asks why I didn't use any of the GPS functions, as it would of helped situational awareness, and he would have "detuned" anything that I wasn't allowed to use at the appropriate parts of the test.
Same with the autopilot, he was baffled why noone was teaching IR students to use it.
I then pass said test, but in the debrief the examiner asks why I didn't use any of the GPS functions, as it would of helped situational awareness, and he would have "detuned" anything that I wasn't allowed to use at the appropriate parts of the test.
Same with the autopilot, he was baffled why noone was teaching IR students to use it.
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Did my full IR in a duchess with a Garmin 430 fitted, but only one of my three instructors showed me anything about it (although I had read the manual) and the general advice I had was not to use it at all for the test.
It is almost as if it is taboo to use any GPS derived aids. I also agree, a lot do not seem that proficient in it. One reason I have thought about is that most panel mounted units are on the right side, and all scan instruments are on the LHS. If concentrating on scan, then the distraction of coming away from the practiced scan, to look over at the GPS, can be awkward. Of course, a lot of the newer glass installs, have the GPS display in front of the LHS pilot.
Might not have anything to do with it though.