Stepping down gracefully....
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A very interesting thread, thanks to the op who started it.
I must say that for me, out of all the replies and points put forward, Whirlybird's posts make the most interesting and indeed, sensible reading.
He/she is correct in the assumption that age affects everybody differently - indeed, I know 50 year olds who are old before their time (and 80 year olds who jump over their heads). Is it nature or nuture - the 'luck of the draw', genetic involvement. Who knows...?
The primary point I really agree with however, is there is a very big difference with those who fly for pleasure - even those who fly commerially (there are normally 2 of the on the flightdeck), than those who instruct for a living.
Whirlybirds comments strike a very valid chord there.
I would go on and elaborate my points, but am typing this on a very unresponsive android tablet, which is far too hard and taking far too long...
I must say that for me, out of all the replies and points put forward, Whirlybird's posts make the most interesting and indeed, sensible reading.
He/she is correct in the assumption that age affects everybody differently - indeed, I know 50 year olds who are old before their time (and 80 year olds who jump over their heads). Is it nature or nuture - the 'luck of the draw', genetic involvement. Who knows...?
The primary point I really agree with however, is there is a very big difference with those who fly for pleasure - even those who fly commerially (there are normally 2 of the on the flightdeck), than those who instruct for a living.
Whirlybirds comments strike a very valid chord there.
I would go on and elaborate my points, but am typing this on a very unresponsive android tablet, which is far too hard and taking far too long...
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Interesting question. Maybe I can put a different slant on it...
I was living the dream. I owned my aircraft, a TB10, it was at an airfield close to me and whilst I was very busy flying commercially (as a passenger) all over the world during the week, I was able to do everything in my power to be home to the UK late Friday nights. I was single following a divorce and my time was my own. Saturday's were my 'France' day. 8am, fire up the mid-life Porsche and head to the airfield. The TB would be on the apron waiting for me. After a walk-round, off I went. ...SND, DVR then direct LFAC or Cap Gris Nez to LFAT. A nice lunch, a visit to the supermarket and back by 16:00.
Then, I did a trip down to Spain, a great experience. After that, it was like there was nothing else left to do. I had my IMC, I'd done aero's...I just became bored. With so many people desperate to become PPL's I know that is a terrible thing to admit but it's true. The aircraft spent more time sitting in the hangar and I thinking it would just rot away, I sold it. That was seven years ago and I haven't flown since. I don't regret a moment of the twenty three years or so I was flying or indeed the money I spent. However, last June, I was chatting to a chap who owns an aircraft near where I now live in France. He was exhorting me to start again. I went up for a flight with him in his Jodel and it was then that I realised my time had passed. I'm only 58 but I didn't feel comfortable..to be frank, I was apprehensive or, if you want to put it bluntly, scared. I don't know why, I really don't but I knew that to start flying again would be wrong because I couldn't be sure I would be able to handle things if they went awry.
So now? I go fishing in my boat...and I'm happy. There you are. That's my story and that's why I stepped down - gracefully.
I was living the dream. I owned my aircraft, a TB10, it was at an airfield close to me and whilst I was very busy flying commercially (as a passenger) all over the world during the week, I was able to do everything in my power to be home to the UK late Friday nights. I was single following a divorce and my time was my own. Saturday's were my 'France' day. 8am, fire up the mid-life Porsche and head to the airfield. The TB would be on the apron waiting for me. After a walk-round, off I went. ...SND, DVR then direct LFAC or Cap Gris Nez to LFAT. A nice lunch, a visit to the supermarket and back by 16:00.
Then, I did a trip down to Spain, a great experience. After that, it was like there was nothing else left to do. I had my IMC, I'd done aero's...I just became bored. With so many people desperate to become PPL's I know that is a terrible thing to admit but it's true. The aircraft spent more time sitting in the hangar and I thinking it would just rot away, I sold it. That was seven years ago and I haven't flown since. I don't regret a moment of the twenty three years or so I was flying or indeed the money I spent. However, last June, I was chatting to a chap who owns an aircraft near where I now live in France. He was exhorting me to start again. I went up for a flight with him in his Jodel and it was then that I realised my time had passed. I'm only 58 but I didn't feel comfortable..to be frank, I was apprehensive or, if you want to put it bluntly, scared. I don't know why, I really don't but I knew that to start flying again would be wrong because I couldn't be sure I would be able to handle things if they went awry.
So now? I go fishing in my boat...and I'm happy. There you are. That's my story and that's why I stepped down - gracefully.
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And the you get someone like Neville Duke!
He flew up to and including the day he died. Felt unwell flying his wife but managed to get back to earth to drop her off before departing it himself forever!
He lived and left his flying and his life with the utmost grace ... What an example to us all!
SS
He flew up to and including the day he died. Felt unwell flying his wife but managed to get back to earth to drop her off before departing it himself forever!
He lived and left his flying and his life with the utmost grace ... What an example to us all!
SS
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strake
Your situation is different and can happen at 30 40 50 60 or whatever! If you loose that pleasure from flying or have achieved what you want and it all becomes a chore then chuck it in.
We all go through the roller coaster of that! Often you have a bad string of flights or boring flights and wonder what the heck you are doing it all for!
Other times its all the hoops you have to jump through especially with all this new EASA rubbish and the expense and you think about where the pleasure is in doing it all and is it really worth all the grief?
Other times you get a fabulous flight and the enthusiasm kicks in again and off you go again.
But yes if the enthusiasm goes and does not come back then look for something else to light your fire.
flying is a demanding mistress all well and good when she is exciting and new! But when she becomes too demanding and the excitement wears off and it all becomes a chore fulfilling those demands without the excitement then find a new mistress
or accept the one you have warts and all 
Pace
Your situation is different and can happen at 30 40 50 60 or whatever! If you loose that pleasure from flying or have achieved what you want and it all becomes a chore then chuck it in.
We all go through the roller coaster of that! Often you have a bad string of flights or boring flights and wonder what the heck you are doing it all for!
Other times its all the hoops you have to jump through especially with all this new EASA rubbish and the expense and you think about where the pleasure is in doing it all and is it really worth all the grief?
Other times you get a fabulous flight and the enthusiasm kicks in again and off you go again.
But yes if the enthusiasm goes and does not come back then look for something else to light your fire.
flying is a demanding mistress all well and good when she is exciting and new! But when she becomes too demanding and the excitement wears off and it all becomes a chore fulfilling those demands without the excitement then find a new mistress
or accept the one you have warts and all Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Jan 2014 at 20:53.
Flying is not unique in needing to address the issues of an aging group of participants. We often hear of the problems of an aging population on healthcare systems, but less about the aging doctors. There is an increasing amount of research egged on by the fact that we havent enough doctors in the 1st world, and we cant afford to let them go due to age!
The evidence is that decision processing changes. Younger doctors make decisions based on many inputs with an output determined by a protocol. Older doctors use experience and need less inputs but often have a better output. Although the older doctors find it difficult to cope with night work, fatigue itself is of little importance.
As a result we believe there is scant evidence to stop older doctors working even at the cutting edge. Pilots have the added hurdle or check of needing a medical, and here again the evidence is that a 70 year old today is less likely to experience a sudden incapacitation than a 60 year old just 20 years ago. Flying is far more sedentary than many medical specialties.
So whilst I would never criticize anyone deciding to retire, I do have concerns at anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe.
The evidence is that decision processing changes. Younger doctors make decisions based on many inputs with an output determined by a protocol. Older doctors use experience and need less inputs but often have a better output. Although the older doctors find it difficult to cope with night work, fatigue itself is of little importance.
As a result we believe there is scant evidence to stop older doctors working even at the cutting edge. Pilots have the added hurdle or check of needing a medical, and here again the evidence is that a 70 year old today is less likely to experience a sudden incapacitation than a 60 year old just 20 years ago. Flying is far more sedentary than many medical specialties.
So whilst I would never criticize anyone deciding to retire, I do have concerns at anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe.
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Well, boys and girls, this is your Original Poster. Highly amused by the ruffled feathers of some of our macho machine drivers. And thankful for the good sense of others.
Radgirl of the Antipodes gets quite ruffled at "anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe".... She supports her argument by saying we shouldn't retire older doctors just because they find it difficult to cope with night work. O dear. There is a difference between doctoring and being a commercial pilot with 360 trusting bodies sitting in the back. Doctors usually only kill one patient at a time....
I had my wake up call on April 2, 2010, a stroke that knocked out part of the peripheral vision. Up to then I had still been instructing in gliders and flying the tow plane. I was only 77 years old at the time. Bummer. Absolute bummer. So no less of a macho oldie than our friend Pace, bet he's younger than me, too.
But I havn't quit flying altogether. I lecture, I act as launchpoint coordinator, and serve on various committees, and recruit new members for the gliding club. And whenever I can snaffle a qualified instructor willing to suffer in the student's front seat, I still mess around in a K13....locally, to be sure, and only in weather that does not exceed my personal limits!
There you go. Just remember to keep taking the pills.....
Radgirl of the Antipodes gets quite ruffled at "anecdotal comments about older people being somehow less safe".... She supports her argument by saying we shouldn't retire older doctors just because they find it difficult to cope with night work. O dear. There is a difference between doctoring and being a commercial pilot with 360 trusting bodies sitting in the back. Doctors usually only kill one patient at a time....
I had my wake up call on April 2, 2010, a stroke that knocked out part of the peripheral vision. Up to then I had still been instructing in gliders and flying the tow plane. I was only 77 years old at the time. Bummer. Absolute bummer. So no less of a macho oldie than our friend Pace, bet he's younger than me, too.
But I havn't quit flying altogether. I lecture, I act as launchpoint coordinator, and serve on various committees, and recruit new members for the gliding club. And whenever I can snaffle a qualified instructor willing to suffer in the student's front seat, I still mess around in a K13....locally, to be sure, and only in weather that does not exceed my personal limits!
There you go. Just remember to keep taking the pills.....
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Mary
Radgirl posts excellent advice and information in the medical section So her opinions and knowledge are always respected
I still come back to the fact that the government expect people to work longer and keep on delaying the pension age to later and later ages with the argument that nowadays people are healthier and live longer with a higher quality of life.
As such they are expected to work and generate an income far later ?
If a pilot still wants to fly and still passes medicals and still performs up to standard in simulator testing then I see no reason why they should not fly?
if the government want to treat pilots as special cases and allow them to take a state pension at 60 then thats a different matter but why single them out as too old compared to other people? That is discrimination.
I would also like to see statistical evidence that older pilots are collapsing at the controls more than those in their late 40s early fifties ( the highest heart attack era ?)
Mary Love the ONLY bit if I am still flying when I reach the ripe old age that you were still instructing at I would be more than happy. You surely are a good example of my argument You were still instructing at 77!!! following your argument you would have chucked it in 17 years earlier at 60 which is nearer my age
Pace
Radgirl posts excellent advice and information in the medical section
So her opinions and knowledge are always respected I still come back to the fact that the government expect people to work longer and keep on delaying the pension age to later and later ages with the argument that nowadays people are healthier and live longer with a higher quality of life.
As such they are expected to work and generate an income far later ?
If a pilot still wants to fly and still passes medicals and still performs up to standard in simulator testing then I see no reason why they should not fly?
if the government want to treat pilots as special cases and allow them to take a state pension at 60 then thats a different matter but why single them out as too old compared to other people? That is discrimination.
I would also like to see statistical evidence that older pilots are collapsing at the controls more than those in their late 40s early fifties ( the highest heart attack era ?)
So no less of a macho oldie than our friend Pace, bet he's younger than me, too.
I was only 77 years old at the time.
if I am still flying when I reach the ripe old age that you were still instructing at I would be more than happy. You surely are a good example of my argument You were still instructing at 77!!! following your argument you would have chucked it in 17 years earlier at 60 which is nearer my age Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Jan 2014 at 23:54.
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I think it was Ken Wallis who, when well into his nineties, was interviewed by a journalist about his career, and was asked during the interview how long it had been since he had last piloted an aircraft.
"Oh, it's been quite some time now" Ken replied.
Then glancing at his watch said, "About ten thirty this morning I think......"
"Oh, it's been quite some time now" Ken replied.
Then glancing at his watch said, "About ten thirty this morning I think......"
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we all age differently and that is the rub. if your genes are of the type to keep you active in old age then stay active.
there was a photo in a National Geographic I saw in the doctors once. it was just a woman at a service station putting petrol in the tank of her Toyota.
the caption read " this photo would be totally unremarkable except for the fact that the woman in the photo is 114 years old."
if you can then do.
I also worked on a ward once where the nurse in charge pulled me aside.
she asked me to give the old guy in the end bed a little extra care. he was losing his marbles.
"ten years ago he was the brilliant doctor who ran this ward".
I'm still aiming to be active at 100.
there was a photo in a National Geographic I saw in the doctors once. it was just a woman at a service station putting petrol in the tank of her Toyota.
the caption read " this photo would be totally unremarkable except for the fact that the woman in the photo is 114 years old."
if you can then do.
I also worked on a ward once where the nurse in charge pulled me aside.
she asked me to give the old guy in the end bed a little extra care. he was losing his marbles.
"ten years ago he was the brilliant doctor who ran this ward".
I'm still aiming to be active at 100.
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flybymike, I've heard that one, but it was a slightly different version.
Pilot goes in to see his GP to have his medical signed off. After going over his records, the GP enquires delicately about his current level of sexual activity.
Doctor: "Now, Eric, when did you last have sexual intercourse?"
Eric: "Well, that would have been about Nineteen fifty-two..."
Doctor: (trying not to show astonishment} "That was quite a while ago...."
Eric, (looking at his watch) "Not really. Its only twenty-one fourteen now..."
......this joke, like me, is a relic from the previous century.
Pilot goes in to see his GP to have his medical signed off. After going over his records, the GP enquires delicately about his current level of sexual activity.
Doctor: "Now, Eric, when did you last have sexual intercourse?"
Eric: "Well, that would have been about Nineteen fifty-two..."
Doctor: (trying not to show astonishment} "That was quite a while ago...."
Eric, (looking at his watch) "Not really. Its only twenty-one fourteen now..."
......this joke, like me, is a relic from the previous century.
It all depends on the individual.
At my local airfield we have a spritely 90 year old who is still flying on his NPPL - I would happily be his passenger anytime.
My father, a veteran instructor, was still examining when he was 81 years and had all his faculties with much sage advice to pass on.
I read quite a few classic stereotypes about "old age" on this thread. Feature on news about pensions a while ago and they show folks walking with Zimmer frames!
Latest research shows dementia and type 2 diabetes go together and can be prevented and even reversed by correct nutrition - read "Grain Brain" by David Perlmutter.
It's a tough call I agree though. Although I have no health issues I decided to quit my last airline job when I was 62 years (I still do some light aircraft flying) since I thought it preferable to do so when "winning"!
At my local airfield we have a spritely 90 year old who is still flying on his NPPL - I would happily be his passenger anytime.
My father, a veteran instructor, was still examining when he was 81 years and had all his faculties with much sage advice to pass on.
I read quite a few classic stereotypes about "old age" on this thread. Feature on news about pensions a while ago and they show folks walking with Zimmer frames!
Latest research shows dementia and type 2 diabetes go together and can be prevented and even reversed by correct nutrition - read "Grain Brain" by David Perlmutter.
It's a tough call I agree though. Although I have no health issues I decided to quit my last airline job when I was 62 years (I still do some light aircraft flying) since I thought it preferable to do so when "winning"!
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Regarding receding pension age, that's more to do with early pensions being no longer affordable (state or private) than any increased longevity, though increased longevity is one reason they are no longer affordable as early!
That folk might stay healthier longer is good in itself, but the reasons for later pensions are entirely economic!
That folk might stay healthier longer is good in itself, but the reasons for later pensions are entirely economic!
The Original Whirly
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Lots of interesting comments, many anecdotes on flyers in their 70s, 80s, and 90s, a few posters who seem to be in terror at the mere idea of old age, and even an accusation of ageism for discussing this issue. But.....
I'm not sure anyone has answered Mary's core question, which seems to me to be
The precise age we're talking about is irrelevant. Maybe in your own case you can go on till you're about 120 years old. Or maybe you can't. But how do you know? Would you know? And we're talking about single pilot operations such as private flying, with no-one else around to notice or help. Would the medics even recognise a marginal decrease in the ability to cope with, for instance, an emergency such as a failure of something crucial in bad weather? (apologies to Radgirl for even suggesting this 
)
I'm only asking....
I'm not sure anyone has answered Mary's core question, which seems to me to be
how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?
)I'm only asking....
Keep faith oh wrinkley ones - last Saturday I sent a 78 year old solo for the first time (in a a glider) in 60 years, yes he took a while longer than the current batch of 14 year old wannabees to get things right, it was a perfect day, flat calm & clear with no-one else in the circuit but heck that gent had more determination than most of us put together & is still smiling (& so am I!)
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Answering Marys core question is in Marys answer?
She was still instructing at the ripe age of 77 and gave up when her health deteriorated due to a stroke.
Fair dues to Mary she still takes an active interest by imparting her knowledge on the ground and helping around the club as well as flying with an instructor.
Most people know when to quit! Either they no longer want to fly or they know their health is not as good as it should be which usually goes back to not wanting to fly.
There are probably a small minority who refuse to acknowledge their lack of health or declining abilities but usually others do notice.
they still have to pass a medical and maybe over 70 should have more tests or slightly different flight tests as maybe should car drivers.
with commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator
Pace
Answering Marys core question is in Marys answer?
She was still instructing at the ripe age of 77 and gave up when her health deteriorated due to a stroke.
Fair dues to Mary she still takes an active interest by imparting her knowledge on the ground and helping around the club as well as flying with an instructor.
Most people know when to quit! Either they no longer want to fly or they know their health is not as good as it should be which usually goes back to not wanting to fly.
There are probably a small minority who refuse to acknowledge their lack of health or declining abilities but usually others do notice.
they still have to pass a medical and maybe over 70 should have more tests or slightly different flight tests as maybe should car drivers.
with commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator
Pace
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One pilot-author I read decided it was time to stop after a Tiger Moth flight. He'd started it on the mag with the impulse on it as one should, but only after landing did he discover he'd forgotten to turn on the other mag, and had conducted the entire flight on one mag.
I'm 'between aeroplanes' at the moment and might or might not re-start flying. I did my PPL in 1978 and had a whale of a time in the late 70s, the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. But then the Chipmunk group moved to Liverpool, much further away from where I live. For a few years I put up with the extra travelling and hassle this involved... the final nail in the coffin for that group for me was when the John Lennon Airport got all serious about security and put up electronic gates which only an airside pass (obtainable at great cost) would open. Or you could perhaps persuade flying school staff to sign you in under their pass (legal but a right pain, especially if you need to get back out to your car again, then back in).
When we used to be Barton based one could pitch up at the airfield and sniff the air. If flight looked a possibility, one could wheel out the Chippy and go do a circuit. If it still looked OK from the air, one went flying. If not happy with it, one landed and went for a cuppa in the clubhouse to talk flying tales with other frustrated aviators in there.
At John Lennon one had to book out with a zone exit point so one didn't get airborne unless there was a good chance one would be happy to at least fly as far as that point after take off. One had read the TAFs, checked the wx at home 40 miles away, and driven 40 miles to the airfield. More often than not the wx wasn't good enough (vis or xwind on the single runway being common bars to flight in our strictly VFR aeroplane).
Then, one would often discover the aeroplane hadn't been fuelled, despite being pulled out of the hangar in the morning by flying school staff. Getting fuel was a time consuming excercise which could take longer than the planned flight!
One day, as I yet again tried to find someone to let me out to my car, and yet to face the refuelling hassle, and the wx marginal anyway, I thought 'sod this. It's costing me money and the hassle factor is beginning to outweigh the fun'. Then someone sent me an email offering to buy my share; this a couple of years ago at a time of economic depression when shares in fun aeroplanes were hard to sell and several group members had being trying to sell for months or years. So I sold. had my last P1 flight 2 years ago.
In the end what did it for me was the excess of hassle and the increasing cost of the long drive to Liverpool and back with the uncertainty of flight. The one good thing about operating from John Lennon was ATC - they were excellent at handling small aeroplanes among the commercial traffic.
However, after the free and easy Barton days, it was as if flying for fun had no place in aviation any more and it was being discouraged in every possible way.
Oh, and unlike Barton if one didn't fly there was no clubhouse full of aviators to go to instead as compensation. One simply went home, dejected. And it seems no better at Barton these days. We called in there one bank holiday last year (on the motorbikes which have largely replaced aeroplanes in my life) and there was almost nothing flying whereas 10 years earlier it would have been vibrant with flyers, aeroplanes, aeroplane fettling... Even the cubhouse which would have been full of flyers planning flights with charts on the tables, instructors briefing and de-briefing students was instead silent with a few OAPs slowly munching a roast beef lunch. Not a whiff of aviation anywhere in the air.
Do I miss it? Well, not as much as I thought I would. I had 30+ years of taildragging, stripping, aeros, and pure flying fun in very many aeroplanes from Cubs to Yaks. But if anyone knows of a Cub on a farm strip with share going, not too far from East Cheshire, please let me know!
I'm 'between aeroplanes' at the moment and might or might not re-start flying. I did my PPL in 1978 and had a whale of a time in the late 70s, the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. But then the Chipmunk group moved to Liverpool, much further away from where I live. For a few years I put up with the extra travelling and hassle this involved... the final nail in the coffin for that group for me was when the John Lennon Airport got all serious about security and put up electronic gates which only an airside pass (obtainable at great cost) would open. Or you could perhaps persuade flying school staff to sign you in under their pass (legal but a right pain, especially if you need to get back out to your car again, then back in).
When we used to be Barton based one could pitch up at the airfield and sniff the air. If flight looked a possibility, one could wheel out the Chippy and go do a circuit. If it still looked OK from the air, one went flying. If not happy with it, one landed and went for a cuppa in the clubhouse to talk flying tales with other frustrated aviators in there.
At John Lennon one had to book out with a zone exit point so one didn't get airborne unless there was a good chance one would be happy to at least fly as far as that point after take off. One had read the TAFs, checked the wx at home 40 miles away, and driven 40 miles to the airfield. More often than not the wx wasn't good enough (vis or xwind on the single runway being common bars to flight in our strictly VFR aeroplane).
Then, one would often discover the aeroplane hadn't been fuelled, despite being pulled out of the hangar in the morning by flying school staff. Getting fuel was a time consuming excercise which could take longer than the planned flight!
One day, as I yet again tried to find someone to let me out to my car, and yet to face the refuelling hassle, and the wx marginal anyway, I thought 'sod this. It's costing me money and the hassle factor is beginning to outweigh the fun'. Then someone sent me an email offering to buy my share; this a couple of years ago at a time of economic depression when shares in fun aeroplanes were hard to sell and several group members had being trying to sell for months or years. So I sold. had my last P1 flight 2 years ago.
In the end what did it for me was the excess of hassle and the increasing cost of the long drive to Liverpool and back with the uncertainty of flight. The one good thing about operating from John Lennon was ATC - they were excellent at handling small aeroplanes among the commercial traffic.
However, after the free and easy Barton days, it was as if flying for fun had no place in aviation any more and it was being discouraged in every possible way.
Oh, and unlike Barton if one didn't fly there was no clubhouse full of aviators to go to instead as compensation. One simply went home, dejected. And it seems no better at Barton these days. We called in there one bank holiday last year (on the motorbikes which have largely replaced aeroplanes in my life) and there was almost nothing flying whereas 10 years earlier it would have been vibrant with flyers, aeroplanes, aeroplane fettling... Even the cubhouse which would have been full of flyers planning flights with charts on the tables, instructors briefing and de-briefing students was instead silent with a few OAPs slowly munching a roast beef lunch. Not a whiff of aviation anywhere in the air.
Do I miss it? Well, not as much as I thought I would. I had 30+ years of taildragging, stripping, aeros, and pure flying fun in very many aeroplanes from Cubs to Yaks. But if anyone knows of a Cub on a farm strip with share going, not too far from East Cheshire, please let me know!
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Pace, the last line in your post is open to question. You say
"With commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator....!"
Then WHY do I read that the bean counters are cutting down on the simulator sessions, that these sessions fail to cover some of the most important items such as recovering from a stall at 38,000 feet over the Atlantic Ocean, etc etc
and that first officers are still too deferential in certain cultures?
How many simulator sessions does the average flight instructor in light aircraft afford a year? I bet not many. Gliding instructors in the UK are tested at least once a year in a real life session with our CFI (Chief Flying Instructor in UK parlance). How is the hard working professional flight instructor monitored these days?
How often are you monitored, Pace? fess up!
I still think it is up to each pilot with the responsibility of somebody's life in their hands to realise when it is the only decent thing to step down. Just as it still is my responsibility to speak up when I observe something happening that could cause an accident...even if the Pilot In Charge of the Flight thinks I'm a pain in the butt.
"With commercial pilots any decline in performance would easily be picked up under pressure and mental loading in a simulator....!"
Then WHY do I read that the bean counters are cutting down on the simulator sessions, that these sessions fail to cover some of the most important items such as recovering from a stall at 38,000 feet over the Atlantic Ocean, etc etc
and that first officers are still too deferential in certain cultures?
How many simulator sessions does the average flight instructor in light aircraft afford a year? I bet not many. Gliding instructors in the UK are tested at least once a year in a real life session with our CFI (Chief Flying Instructor in UK parlance). How is the hard working professional flight instructor monitored these days?
How often are you monitored, Pace? fess up!
I still think it is up to each pilot with the responsibility of somebody's life in their hands to realise when it is the only decent thing to step down. Just as it still is my responsibility to speak up when I observe something happening that could cause an accident...even if the Pilot In Charge of the Flight thinks I'm a pain in the butt.
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Mary
Remember I am an ATP with a current type rating so have to be tested every year in the sim.
Take my word everything is thrown at you in the sim and any signs of dementia or slowing up would show up!
i also fly a multi crew jet with another commercial pilot as an FO.
Part of that relationship is monitoring i.e. the younger FO is checking all that I do and visa versa
There was a well documented airline crash where the Captain was out of the cockpit and his YOUNG co pilot failed to identify a stall and took the wrong actions but this was a young guy not some demented old relic.
Here you get onto my pet subject which is the modern training directed at recovery from anything at the incipient stage and the churning out of aircraft drivers rather than handling pilots but we have done that one to death
But I find it hard to understand why you want 60 year old pilots to chuck in the towel when you yourself were still instructing at 77 years of age? That I admire!
I would be all for pilots over 70 having special flight tests every 6 months or a year to check they are up to speed especially regarding reactions and ability to pick up their game under pressure.
Pace
Remember I am an ATP with a current type rating so have to be tested every year in the sim.
Take my word everything is thrown at you in the sim and any signs of dementia or slowing up would show up!
i also fly a multi crew jet with another commercial pilot as an FO.
Part of that relationship is monitoring i.e. the younger FO is checking all that I do and visa versa
There was a well documented airline crash where the Captain was out of the cockpit and his YOUNG co pilot failed to identify a stall and took the wrong actions but this was a young guy not some demented old relic.
Here you get onto my pet subject which is the modern training directed at recovery from anything at the incipient stage and the churning out of aircraft drivers rather than handling pilots but we have done that one to death
But I find it hard to understand why you want 60 year old pilots to chuck in the towel when you yourself were still instructing at 77 years of age? That I admire!
I would be all for pilots over 70 having special flight tests every 6 months or a year to check they are up to speed especially regarding reactions and ability to pick up their game under pressure.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 16th Jan 2014 at 15:41.
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Pace,
I think this thread is basically about single pilot operations, particularly PPLs and instructors. Commercial operations are a different issue. And nowhere have I read that Mary -or anyone else for that matter - suggested that all pilots "chuck in the towel" at age 60
I think this thread is basically about single pilot operations, particularly PPLs and instructors. Commercial operations are a different issue. And nowhere have I read that Mary -or anyone else for that matter - suggested that all pilots "chuck in the towel" at age 60