Ratio of male to female?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Difficult to ask women why they don't become pilots, because your data set will be swamped with the same replies that you would get if you asked men! Simply because, as a percentage of the general population, very very few men become pilots.
One interesting area might be private schools with their Combined Cadet Forces.
Unlike the Air Training Corps, which is purely voluntary and seen by many as a "good thing" if wanting to join the RAF in any capacity - even as a "knitting" instructor, or whatever gender-favoured role you wish to identify - the CCF is slightly more compulsory and people have to make a choice between Army, Navy and RAF.
Since, - in my old school, which is now co-educational - there are quite a few female teenagers who have chosen the RAF section, it might be useful to use them as a data set and ask some of these questions.
And perhaps track them down 10 years later and find out if/why they have continued/not continued their interest in aviation.
Would make a good research project for someone?
One interesting area might be private schools with their Combined Cadet Forces.
Unlike the Air Training Corps, which is purely voluntary and seen by many as a "good thing" if wanting to join the RAF in any capacity - even as a "knitting" instructor, or whatever gender-favoured role you wish to identify - the CCF is slightly more compulsory and people have to make a choice between Army, Navy and RAF.
Since, - in my old school, which is now co-educational - there are quite a few female teenagers who have chosen the RAF section, it might be useful to use them as a data set and ask some of these questions.
And perhaps track them down 10 years later and find out if/why they have continued/not continued their interest in aviation.
Would make a good research project for someone?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"the CCF is slightly more compulsory and people have to make a choice between Army, Navy and RAF".
Sorry XrayAlpha, you can't have "slightly more compulsory", it's either compulsory or it's not. In the case of the CCF (like the armed forces), it's not and hasn't been for a long time.
Sorry XrayAlpha, you can't have "slightly more compulsory", it's either compulsory or it's not. In the case of the CCF (like the armed forces), it's not and hasn't been for a long time.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look at the animal world for your answers? We really have not evolved that much although we like to think we have.
In the second world war there were some fantastic female pilots who moved aircraft around and women can be far more ruthless and decisive and committed than males
But it is more likely to be a Macho thing more than an ability thing! And that is derogatory to men as women are more committed to a chosen path than us testosterone driven males and make better employees than men who are more into ego things and trying to prove our gene banks are better than others
you only have to see the willy waving antics in these forums
Problem is having persuaded a female that our gene banks are top notch when they find the truth we get dumped
Big Boys toys springs to mind we never grow up
Pace
In the second world war there were some fantastic female pilots who moved aircraft around and women can be far more ruthless and decisive and committed than males
But it is more likely to be a Macho thing more than an ability thing! And that is derogatory to men as women are more committed to a chosen path than us testosterone driven males and make better employees than men who are more into ego things and trying to prove our gene banks are better than others
you only have to see the willy waving antics in these forums
Problem is having persuaded a female that our gene banks are top notch when they find the truth we get dumped
Big Boys toys springs to mind we never grow up
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Dec 2013 at 10:34.
I've flown with a number of women instructors, can't say I noticed that they were overall better or worse than men in the same role. I can recall one who was pretty damned mediocre - but can remember men like that too, and can remember one who was one of the best instructors I've ever flown with - but I've flown with some superb male instructors as well.
What I do not get however, why when I go to meetings of the aviation "great and good", they are almost entirely male. I've known a handful of women who have reached absolute "top job" level in aviation: Jenny Body, Ann Welch, and Ann Downing being the most obvious. But they are basically out there on their own amongst a massively greater male population.
I was contemplating this a couple of days ago when I was looking at Aeronautical Journal, which is the UK's foremost research journal in general aeronautics. It has an editorial board of 35 - all eminent people in aeronautical research. One of whom is a woman - and she's American.
So basically, there aren't many women in aviation, and the more senior the role, the less there are proportionally. Yet those who are there, are clearly as good as the men, and whilst as a man perhaps I'm less likely to see it, I can't detect any discrimination particularly going on.
So why is it? It certainly seems wrong to me, as surely if women are capable of being as good at something as men (and all evidence I've seen says they are), the professional side of aviation is less well off for being so unbalanced.
G
What I do not get however, why when I go to meetings of the aviation "great and good", they are almost entirely male. I've known a handful of women who have reached absolute "top job" level in aviation: Jenny Body, Ann Welch, and Ann Downing being the most obvious. But they are basically out there on their own amongst a massively greater male population.
I was contemplating this a couple of days ago when I was looking at Aeronautical Journal, which is the UK's foremost research journal in general aeronautics. It has an editorial board of 35 - all eminent people in aeronautical research. One of whom is a woman - and she's American.
So basically, there aren't many women in aviation, and the more senior the role, the less there are proportionally. Yet those who are there, are clearly as good as the men, and whilst as a man perhaps I'm less likely to see it, I can't detect any discrimination particularly going on.
So why is it? It certainly seems wrong to me, as surely if women are capable of being as good at something as men (and all evidence I've seen says they are), the professional side of aviation is less well off for being so unbalanced.
G
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
THAT makes your generalisation true? They are all probably over 50, if not 70!! I dont believe you could extrapolate that to my age bracket
For someone complaining about gender stereotyping I'd say that that ageist comment is a case of the pot calling the kettle black...
For someone complaining about gender stereotyping I'd say that that ageist comment is a case of the pot calling the kettle black...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G
There are without doubt differences.Why do women love shopping while most men hate shopping.
Still Inbred in us is that men go hunting and women are homemakers and rear the kids.
I am afraid that as much as the equality of sexes come to mind that is still the majority fact!
Flying is still seen as the butch macho thing still inhabited on the whole by the Male.
if you want to develop the discussion further why not take the race differentials into the equation! Why are pilots still a vast majority of white Caucasians with the least Black?
Pace
There are without doubt differences.Why do women love shopping while most men hate shopping.
Still Inbred in us is that men go hunting and women are homemakers and rear the kids.
I am afraid that as much as the equality of sexes come to mind that is still the majority fact!
Flying is still seen as the butch macho thing still inhabited on the whole by the Male.
if you want to develop the discussion further why not take the race differentials into the equation! Why are pilots still a vast majority of white Caucasians with the least Black?
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The race thing is purely socio-economical, I think. I don't think there's any difference between black, asian or white males/women in interest. Only the means and the social structure differ.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adam
One of my very best friends who is dark skinned was trying to make it as a pilot and would not agree with you! Are you saying that white middle/upper income people become pilots?
I know plenty of poor income/background white Caucasians who have still made it to being commercial pilots!
The best athletes still tend to be dark skinned is that a social economic thing too?
Pace
One of my very best friends who is dark skinned was trying to make it as a pilot and would not agree with you! Are you saying that white middle/upper income people become pilots?
I know plenty of poor income/background white Caucasians who have still made it to being commercial pilots!
The best athletes still tend to be dark skinned is that a social economic thing too?
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 50
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the idea of women pilots being so few because women are by and large less interested in aviation, less determined, less apt at maths, tech stuff and spatial thinking etc., wouldn't this apply to ATCOs to the same extent? However, AFAIK the proportion of women in this (certainly aviation-related, demanding, and highly qualified) job is considerably higher. My conjecture is that the small proportion of female pilots is mostly simply a matter of (lack of) widespread interest for the particular activity of steering an airplane.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: The Wild Blue Yonder
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’m with BPF on the double facepalm. A simple gender question was asked, and I thought, this would be a good opportunity for all the ladies why fly/want to fly, to speak up, and then I read these:
“…single-minded determination required for many people to attain their PPL, which is a trait more commonly expressed in male brains”
“The sky is blue, not pink”
Yep,
that’s why the ladies don’t post here. Well done chaps - good inclusive environment of professional flyers you've got here.
“…single-minded determination required for many people to attain their PPL, which is a trait more commonly expressed in male brains”
“The sky is blue, not pink”
Yep,
that’s why the ladies don’t post here. Well done chaps - good inclusive environment of professional flyers you've got here.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
My wife and daughter have both said that they have no interest in flying the aircraft themselves because they're both quite happy for me to sit in the front and do it - and carry their bags after landing.
They are both better at doing other stuff than I and I'm happy to let them do that, too.
I have no problem allowing anyone to do as they wish with regard to task sharing.
They are both better at doing other stuff than I and I'm happy to let them do that, too.
I have no problem allowing anyone to do as they wish with regard to task sharing.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RateOne,
While I agree with you that compulsory (and unique) can only be that and nothing else, I was trying for a bit of shorthand to reflect, from Wikipedia:
"A few other schools make CCF attendance voluntary (like Stamford School, with the largest voluntary CCF contingent in the UK[citation needed]), which tends to reduce numbers compared to compulsory contingents, but potentially results in a more uniformly dedicated membership that responds well to training.
"Some of the voluntary CCF schools also run the other options such as community service"
My old school was compulsory, but is now voluntary, I believe. But it also sounds from Wikipedia - I agree not always reliable, but I don't have the time to write to the c200 schools in the RAF CCF to confirm - that there are still some schools with compulsion involved.
Even if stated as "voluntary", I suspect there may still be an element of peer pressure (or complying with the school "ethos") to join the CCF.
In my old school, when there was compulsion, you ened up in the Army section unless you volunteered for the Navy or RAF.
I suspect that these days the RAF types are still very keen.
So my basic idea:
We have a bunch of females who form a higher than usual percentage in aviation terms. Why not ask them what attracted them to aviation, why not track them, and why not find out what made them lose interest.
While I agree with you that compulsory (and unique) can only be that and nothing else, I was trying for a bit of shorthand to reflect, from Wikipedia:
"A few other schools make CCF attendance voluntary (like Stamford School, with the largest voluntary CCF contingent in the UK[citation needed]), which tends to reduce numbers compared to compulsory contingents, but potentially results in a more uniformly dedicated membership that responds well to training.
"Some of the voluntary CCF schools also run the other options such as community service"
My old school was compulsory, but is now voluntary, I believe. But it also sounds from Wikipedia - I agree not always reliable, but I don't have the time to write to the c200 schools in the RAF CCF to confirm - that there are still some schools with compulsion involved.
Even if stated as "voluntary", I suspect there may still be an element of peer pressure (or complying with the school "ethos") to join the CCF.
In my old school, when there was compulsion, you ened up in the Army section unless you volunteered for the Navy or RAF.
I suspect that these days the RAF types are still very keen.
So my basic idea:
We have a bunch of females who form a higher than usual percentage in aviation terms. Why not ask them what attracted them to aviation, why not track them, and why not find out what made them lose interest.
Life's too short for ironing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Scotland, & Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dismissing Alnina's unbecomingly hysterical ranting
"Clear, concise & pretty well thought out points" is more how I would describe her posts.
What on earth has being becoming or unbecoming got to do with one's posts on here?
Back to the OP,
, are they really a rare breed and if so, why is that?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never come across a study that shows men's brains are wired to be more determined or single-minded that women's.
BBC News - Men and women's brains are 'wired differently'
Lets face it, men and women are completely different, for evolutionary reasons we do definitely think in different ways, and the fact is that more men than women want to be pilots.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the report on that study:
"Male brains appeared to be wired front to back"
Says it all really - no wonder I'm confused most of the time, my brain is wired up wrong.
"Male brains appeared to be wired front to back"
Says it all really - no wonder I'm confused most of the time, my brain is wired up wrong.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definately wired different !
We guys always wear the trousers and call the shots ;-----)
Just make sure if you convince one you really do have superman genes
If you get a good one she will feel sorry for you and look after you when she finds the genes are not quite Superman as you made out ; )
Get a bad one and you are screwed and not in the way you want to be ; )
Pace
We guys always wear the trousers and call the shots ;-----)
Just make sure if you convince one you really do have superman genes
If you get a good one she will feel sorry for you and look after you when she finds the genes are not quite Superman as you made out ; )
Get a bad one and you are screwed and not in the way you want to be ; )
Pace
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quoting taybird I believe:
This is the reason why it, according to this theory, would be a great thing to have more female pilots. When **** hits the fan you really need to multitask, mind you.
In fact, focusing on one detail really hard has contributed to quite a few accidents in the past and probably will continue to do so.
Reading this thread has given me some insights why women might be more inclined to work as cabin crew - some of the comments here are very disturbing and I do believe that if a woman wanting to pursue a flying career encounters this attitude on a regular basis she will probably choose something less intimidating. Like being cabin crew. She still gets to fly but avoids the comments that are apparent in this thread. I would feel insulted if some of these things were directed at me, that says it all I believe.
the tendency for male brains to be better at single task focus as opposed to female running multiple streams at the same time
In fact, focusing on one detail really hard has contributed to quite a few accidents in the past and probably will continue to do so.
Reading this thread has given me some insights why women might be more inclined to work as cabin crew - some of the comments here are very disturbing and I do believe that if a woman wanting to pursue a flying career encounters this attitude on a regular basis she will probably choose something less intimidating. Like being cabin crew. She still gets to fly but avoids the comments that are apparent in this thread. I would feel insulted if some of these things were directed at me, that says it all I believe.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Western USA
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is attitude and aptitude. If my wife were a guy, she would be one of the guys. Good attitude. Aptitude for the mechanics of flying? No.
I have experienced pilots of both sexes who have both attitude and aptitude of varying degrees. Those (male or female) who have both in spades are valued and admired by their peers.
I don't care what flavor or color you are, as long as you fit in and do the job. Not everyone can or should be a pilot...male or female. No one should get a pass or receive criticism because of their flavor or color. That's real equality.
I have experienced pilots of both sexes who have both attitude and aptitude of varying degrees. Those (male or female) who have both in spades are valued and admired by their peers.
I don't care what flavor or color you are, as long as you fit in and do the job. Not everyone can or should be a pilot...male or female. No one should get a pass or receive criticism because of their flavor or color. That's real equality.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"My old school was compulsory, but is now voluntary, I believe. But it also sounds from Wikipedia - I agree not always reliable, but I don't have the time to write to the c200 schools in the RAF CCF to confirm - that there are still some schools with compulsion involved"
XrayAlpha, I believe you may be right in that some schools retain compulsory CCF. I suspect that compulsion is not the best way to retention. I was in the CCF 35 years ago and it wasn't compulsory at my school even then. We were in the RAF Section for the flying. Oh, and the guns, but mostly the flying.
By the way I liked your house on Grand Designs
XrayAlpha, I believe you may be right in that some schools retain compulsory CCF. I suspect that compulsion is not the best way to retention. I was in the CCF 35 years ago and it wasn't compulsory at my school even then. We were in the RAF Section for the flying. Oh, and the guns, but mostly the flying.
By the way I liked your house on Grand Designs
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Manchester
Age: 42
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had a CCF - it was compulsory to either join that or to do cross-country! I went with the running about with guns options, since a run was in order either way. It was a CCF in name only though; really an ACF as there was only an army section. Had there been an RAF section, I would have joined that and probably had the impetus to join the RAF proper a few years later.
Equality, incidentally, is not commenting on this at all. If we are all truly equal, and everyone can accept this and act accordingly (which may be the sticking point!) then it matters not how many women there are in any sector as they are, of course, the same as the men...
Equality, incidentally, is not commenting on this at all. If we are all truly equal, and everyone can accept this and act accordingly (which may be the sticking point!) then it matters not how many women there are in any sector as they are, of course, the same as the men...
Last edited by JDA2012; 13th Nov 2015 at 20:44.