PPL + IR(R) to CPL + ME/IR

[LondonJ]

Hi all,

Tried posting this on the professional pilot studies forum to no avail and have been googling around with not much luck to find an official document to explain this.

I currently have a PPL + IMCR (aka IR(R)).

I have nearly completed the ATPL theory and am now starting on the practical portion of the CPL and ME/IR. Under the new EASA system, would anyone be able to advise what (if any) reduction I can get on the training hours requirement for holding the IMCR?

Many thanks!

[S-Works]

None, nadda, zero, zilch.

[JDA2012]

I will also be running into this situation shortly, so have taken a look at CAP804 (Section 4, Part G), which gives the information copied below.

The short answer seems to be that the IR(R) is barely touched upon and certainly gives no credit, but that could be due to recent changes not filtering through yet; perhaps someone with more first-hand knowledge could correct me if necessary?

The sticking point appears to be that all required IFR time is specified as part of the course; there is no generic "fly X hours IFR" requirement, just "complete the course". However, there is no statement that "the course" cannot overlap with the IR(R) course; this would depend if the syllabi are in any way compatible and I am not minded to look into it in that much detail at this moment. I suspect that the CAA might not be minded to approve an application based on such conjecture either!

An applicant for the EASA IR (A) shall comply with the following Part-FCL requirements:
...
FCL.610 IR(A) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting
FCL.615 IR(A) – Theoretical Knowledge Examinations and Flight Instruction
FCL.620 IR(A) – Skill Test
...

Which are:

FCL.610 IR(A) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting
Applicants for an IR shall:
(a) hold:
(1) at least a PPL(A), and:
(i) the privileges to fly at night in accordance with FCL.810 i; or
(ii) an ATPL in another category of aircraft; or
(2) a CPL(A).
(b) have completed at least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as PIC in aeroplanes,
helicopters or airships of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.

FCL.615 IR(A) – Theoretical Knowledge Examinations and Flight Instruction
(a) Course. Applicants for an IR shall have received a course of theoretical knowledge
and flight instruction at an ATO. The course shall be:
(1) an integrated training course which includes training for the IR, in accordance
with Appendix 3 to Part-FCL (refer to CAP 804, Section 4, Part L, Appendix
3); or
(2) a modular course in accordance with Appendix 6 to Part-FCL,(refer to
CAP 804, Section 4, Part L, Appendix 6).
(b) Examination. Applicants shall demonstrate a level of theoretical knowledge
appropriate to the privileges granted in the following subjects:
— Air Law,
— Aircraft General Knowledge – Instrumentation,
— Flight Performance and Monitoring,
— Human Performance,
— Meteorology,
— Radio Navigation,
— IFR Communications.

FCL.620 IR(A) – Skill Test
(a) Applicants for an IR(A) shall pass a skill test in accordance with Appendix 7 to Part-
FCL to demonstrate the ability to perform the relevant procedures and manoeuvres
with a degree of competency appropriate to the privileges granted.
27 July 2012
CAP 804 Part I Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance
Section 4 Part G, Subpart 1 Page 3
(b) For a multi-engine IR(A), the skill test shall be taken in a multi-engine aeroplane.
For a single-engine IR, the test shall be taken in a single-engine aeroplane. A multiengine
centerline thrust aeroplane shall be considered a single-engine aeroplane
for the purposes of this paragraph.

So in brief (and assuming fixed-wing):

- PPL(A) + Night Rating / ATPL / CPL(A)

- 50 hours XC as PIC (IMC/IFR not specified)

- Complete the training course, which is specified in Section 4 Part L Appendix 6 as 50/55 hours (single/multi) dual IFR (of which 35/40 can be sim), with a 10-hour reduction if you have a CPL(A), plus 150 hours theoretical knowledge instruction. There appear to be no credits granted for an IR(R) or any previous time IFR
- Pass the 7 exams (Section 4 Part L Appendix 1 does not explicitly grant any IR exam credits for ATPL exam passes, but it does for CPL exam passes in Human Performance and Meteorology - perhaps it is meant to be implicit that ATPL exam passes demonstrate a level of theoretical knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted?)

- Pass the skills test

[Whopity]

but that could be due to recent changes not filtering through yet

There is nothing to filter through. You get no credit however; when EASA introduce the EIR and CBM IR then it is highly likely that the training towards your IR(R) will be countable towards those qualifications, but you may have to wait a while.

[Aware]

Under the new proposals you will get 30 hrs credit for the IR R if you have a certain number of IFR hours of which Im unsure, by no means certain that the new legislation will come in re new IR, and most people will be unlikely to pass the ST with the minimum hours so its all rather academic, pre JAR days you used to get 12 hours credit for the IMC.

[LondonJ]

Thanks a lot guys.

Feel a bit like this!

[rustle]

Originally Posted by LondonJ

Thanks a lot guys.

Feel a bit like this!

Why the head-banging?

You asked at 1107 and had a fairly definitive answer by 1151. As you have already started your conversion (per your opening post) any future changes alluded to by 'Aware' wouldn't impact on your [mandated] training requirements anyway...

Was it the wrong answer?

[GipsyMagpie]

I think (might be wrong on this) that the credit works best if you do IR then CPL. Might have been through credit for mil flying but will go away and check.

[S-Works]

There is NO credit for any IMCr training.

If you hold an IR then you are credited 10hrs of training towards the CPL reducing the requirement to 15hrs.

[LondonJ]

Solely because it seems that the IMCr was a bit of a waste of hours in hindsight

Thanks for all the prompt answers. I think that credit works both ways bose-x i.e. you get 10 off the IR if you hold a CPL or vice versa. Though could be wrong.

[rustle]

Originally Posted by LondonJ

Solely because it seems that the IMCr was a bit of a waste of hours in hindsight

As a discount route for IR, yes. As a useful rating in its own right, not a waste.

Skills you learned doing (and using) an IMC rating will be helpful doing an IR even if the hours don't reduce mandatory training.

[S-Works]

Hardly a waste of hours, in fact quite the contrary. It gave you experience of flying on instruments which will benefit you on your road to gaining an IR. You will need to have met the minimum hours requirements for the CPL and IR issue and doing an IMC will have been way more productive than burning holes in the sky.

No credit from the IR for doing a CPL.

[Parson]

LondonJ - as bose says, it is not wasted at all. Provided you've used it a bit it will be a big help when you start your IR. If you happen to save a couple of hours training in the a/craft because of it, it will have mostly paid for itself.

[OhNoCB]

I will also back up what bose-x says about it not being a waste.

I did the very same thing as you are looking at doing, I already held a PPL, IMCr and night qual when I started any commercial training, and I have to say that the IMCr was great. I had a massive head start on the IR course and was able to spend time practicing the stuff I knew I needed to work on while still completing the course in minimum hours (to the point where I was able to do a couple of "for fun" training flights to places that I wished to fulfill the hours requirement for the course). I owed a lot to the IMCr training I received.

[riverrock83]

As has been said - there is currently no reduced hours.
If going the CBM route to an IR is approved through EASA then if you are going this route you would be able to get up to 15 hours if your instructor didn't have IR training privileges, or up to 30 hours if they did.
See http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...01178-2011.pdf
And you would get credit up to 30 hours for IR in IMC flying that you have completed.

[S-Works]

You are drifting off track there Riverock. Those proposals are still not in regulation and there is not date for them to be. Posting them at this stage is just introducing confusion.

The OP is currently in the system and thus the information we have provided is based on where the regulation is currently.