why aren't Motor Gliders more popular?

[chrisN]

Arc, see list at the bottom of this page – do these include what you want?

British Gliding Association >> Instructors >> Motor Gliding - Instructing & Examining

(I decided to try to find it myself for future reference.)

Chris N

[172510]

Gliding clubs don't operate as most flight schools do. You're not a client paying for a service in a Gliding club, you have to be there early in the morning, you have to give a hand, you can even be expected to volunteer for secretarial tasks, IT, etc.
The main advantage of a motorglider, compared to a glider, is that you can operate it on your own, just like a 172. It's a selfish aircraft compared to a glider, and selfish flying is not what soaring clubs do.
Most motorgliders are operated by gliding clubs, that's why it does not work.
When I email a flight school to get a trial lesson, on Microlight, tailwheel, or whatever, I get an answer right away. The people at the flight schools welcome business.
Gliding clubs are not looking for business:
- Booker doesn't train for TMG rating, although they operate a TMG;
- Oxfordshire Sportflying at Enstone Aerodrome never returned my Emails;
- Lasham don't operate their TMG until next year;
etc.
You just can't get a TMG rating as easily as a SEP rating, because people who operate TMG's don't operate as flight schools do.

And yet TMG's are a lot of fun compared to a SEP: when the air is unstable, instead of an uncomfortable flight in a 172, go soaring in a TMG. I still don't understand why flight schools don't operate TMG's together with SEP

[Arclite01]

For all the reasons listed above in the thread.

But in summary IMHO:

• They are not really compatable with shorter winged SEP types for ground handling
• also they are mostly low wing/mid wing whereas many SEP are high wing and not easy to hangar together
• many SEP live outside year round due to hangarage constraints/costs whereas many TMG are not suited to that regime due to construction materials
• The TMG often operates a different circuit pattern that doesn't always fit with conventional SEP operations
• The type of flying TMG does is often different from SEP and can require a different mindset/skillset from SEP - sometimes different instructional skills can be required too..........
• Not sure if the market for TMG is big enough for schools to invest in something that that may not get the usage that the rest of the SEP fleet is getting...........or requires to make the cost model pay

Just my twopennyworth.........
Arc

[Prop swinger]

Originally Posted by 172510

stuff

Where do people come up with this drivel? Gliding clubs don't accept walk-in bookings as that would be commercial aviation. You need to be a member (or guest) to fly at a gliding club.

The reason gliding clubs don't do TMG training is that the majority don't have TMG instructors or examiners. Simple as that. Several clubs do SLMG training &, in my experience, you book your time, with/without an instructor, turn up, fly & go home if you want - ie exactly the same as any power school.

Booker don't have TMG instructors, Lasham do have a TMG examiner but their TMG is in for maintenance for the rest of the year, Oxfordshire Sportflying are a CAA RTF/ATO (although a member of the BGA they're not a typical club.)

TMGs are not popular because they are bad SEPs & bad gliders. If it's soarable I would rather be in a decent glider, if it's not soarable I would rather fly something faster/more interesting than a TMG.

[Arclite01]

I like the compromise and am prepared to accept it for what it is - fun, cheap (relatively) flying/gliding.

Not for the purist I agree - but at this moment in time I have more life critical stuff to do than hang around the launch point all day waiting for 3 x 5 minute circuits or 1 x 20 minute tow. I think you would find there are many people with busy lives (kid demands !!) who feel similarly..........that has always been the issue with Gliding and is the reason why the Gliding Clubs have launch points populated with under 25's and over 55's - they have the time and the money (the over 25's - under 55's just don't). This is however a different issue and is somewhat off the track of the thread.

For me there is also the issue of currency - 3 x 5 minute winch launches every 2 - 3 weeks depending on the weather is not the best currency ratio, 1 hour once a week in the TMG is much better or 1 hour in a decent representative SLMG is even better.......... That's all.

It's horses for courses - this horse has chosen his course............

Arc

[Heston]

For me there is also the issue of currency - 3 x 5 minute winch launches
every 2 - 3 weeks depending on the weather is not the best currency ratio, 1
hour once a week in the TMG is much better or 1 hour in a decent representative
SLMG is even better....

Hmmm not sure about that.. Three winch launches and landings make you safer than one take off and landing in a SLMG IMHO.

But I agree that a good SLMG is probably the best all round flying compromise there is for folk who just want to fly for the fun of it.

[Arclite01]

In the TMG I can do 8 - 10 circuits and landings in a hour, simulate a range of circuit scenarios, or do 1 hour cross country or a mix..............or investigate that Cu just outside gliding range, or climb to the wave bar that is only useable above 3000 feet 5 miles downwind

I still enjoy pure gliding if I get the chance though..............


Arc

[Heston]

In the TMG I can do 8 - 10 circuits and landings in a hour, simulate a range
of circuit scenarios

Oh yes of course (silly me), good! And in fact gliding clubs with a TMG often use it for intensive circuit practice for students who are learning to land - for just that reason...

[Arclite01]

Yep

I think Derek Piggott & Anne Welch cracked that years ago.

It's (the Motorglider) not a replacement for Gliding or Glider Training or Soaring practice or X-Country practice - It's a complimentary tool that can allow you to maximise use of time & conditions and improve your abilities and technique by exposure to a range of situations.

Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Arc

[kevkdg]

York Gliding Centre offers an-initio ppl or nppl training in their tmg and have one instructor and one examiner on their books and their own slingsby t61f venture.

Also, York flying school at breighton have tmg rated instructors and examiner.

[2hotwot]

What aeroplane can you:

Tow a glider
retract the tow rope
switch the engine off and go gliding

It handles better than most SEPs
out-climbs many SEPs (most without the glider and some with)
has a VP prop
folding wings
and is a turbocharged
taildragger
with airbrakes

Never rubbish the Super Dimona

[Flying_Anorak]

As a long term (25 year +) glider pilot / instructor who relatively recently has got himself an NPPL SSEA & SLMG I do feel reasonably qualified to comment on this thread.

I have a share in a G109B and I also have access to a Club's Super Dimona plus the usual PA28s. Of all of them I have to say that the G109B is the nicest to fly - it is comfortable, has a wide cockpit and perhaps most importantly at circa £50 per hour and 90kt cruise it is affordable. This year it has taken me far and wide, including to the Alps and Cannes and back. This is not something I could have afforded to do in an SSEA with the typical operating costs they bring!

Yes ground handling a tail dragger aircraft with a wing span only 9' less than a B25 Mitchell can be challenging, but hopefully it will make me a better pilot as a result. On a good soaring day I'll fly my flapped 15m glider, but on all other days I'll fly my G109 as its low cost means I can just afford to fly for fun, not something I can really justify @ £150hr +.

That said, I wouldn't mind a cheap share in a Cub or a Chippie if anyone knows of one....

[rob-bob]

Glider-Guider,
Yes, I too had a chuckle about the 'crap tourer' comment re: an S-10, The bloke flying to NZ was an epic, how about Klaus Ohlmann's latest
adventure, to study wave flight in the Himalayas
Flying Germany to Kathmandu in something with a 50:1 glide and then using it for 'pure' gliding around Everest, seems to be a good
'compromise' craft

Follow the expedition of Klaus Ohlmann to Nepal. - Quo Vadis International
Yes, I know the bloke is relatively extreme, but personally I cannot wait for next year, to get to his school in the Alps, for a few weeks.

As it is my ambition to own one, because as has been alluded to here and debated fiercely on uras

"Love gliding, but loath gliding clubs"

caveat : I enjoy the socialising, have done all the hard yards, would love to still be able to contribute, but love the feeling of independence