Denham crash yesterday 24 October
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Seneca experience is limited. I seem to recall they need about 2000ft roughly for takeoff? The Aerostar into Elstree is out of the question, Denham is a possibility if very lightly loaded and with newly polished cojones. With the old one I could have easily gone into Damyns Hall.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 30th Oct 2013 at 00:00.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TAKEOFF DISTANCE
Ground Roll: 1 143 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 1 707 ft
LANDING DISTANCE
Ground Roll: 1 400 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 2 180 ft
Adam these are the approx figures for the Five at Grosse weight! Less than Grosse the figures will be better I do not have access to the manual anymore
i used to operate the Seneca and a Baron 55 into 550 meters albeit with very rough runoff areas both ends but never ran off the smooth
the Seneca 2 had even shorter takeoff
I believe Denham is approx 2300 feet long
agreed the Aerostar is famed for needing quite a bit of runway and you would not want to go out at gross weight! Do you have the manual figures?
Pace
Ground Roll: 1 143 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 1 707 ft
LANDING DISTANCE
Ground Roll: 1 400 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 2 180 ft
Adam these are the approx figures for the Five at Grosse weight! Less than Grosse the figures will be better I do not have access to the manual anymore
i used to operate the Seneca and a Baron 55 into 550 meters albeit with very rough runoff areas both ends but never ran off the smooth
the Seneca 2 had even shorter takeoff
I believe Denham is approx 2300 feet long
agreed the Aerostar is famed for needing quite a bit of runway and you would not want to go out at gross weight! Do you have the manual figures?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Oct 2013 at 01:17.
My company operated up to 11 Aerostar 600 and 601's as "birddogs" (ie aircontrol/lead planes for aerial firefighting ops). The company SOP was no operations into airports shorter than 3000 feet under any circumstances.
I have a bit of time in the 601P and found it even more of a runway hog than the lighter unpressurized versions. I also think the takeoff data charts are a complete fantasy of the marketing department and I have never been able to achieve anything close to the book numbers.
I have a bit of time in the 601P and found it even more of a runway hog than the lighter unpressurized versions. I also think the takeoff data charts are a complete fantasy of the marketing department and I have never been able to achieve anything close to the book numbers.
If not burning, much better to get some altitude -- then consider options while the heart rate and adrenalin level are getting back to normal.
A few months ago, a local glider pilot had a side opening canopy come unlatched early on tow. He released at 500' and attempted a no spoiler landing on a downslope runway while holding the canopy closed. He had to groundloop to avoid the fence and wrote off the glider.
Had he continued the tow to 2000' he could have chosen an upslope field. There were standing hay crops that would have prevented him hitting a fence.
Not much relevance to a twin, except that altitude gives you options, including discussing them on the radio, and think time.
Bottom Line: An immediate hurried landing is much less likely to succeed than one that's planned to an adequate runway or field.
A few months ago, a local glider pilot had a side opening canopy come unlatched early on tow. He released at 500' and attempted a no spoiler landing on a downslope runway while holding the canopy closed. He had to groundloop to avoid the fence and wrote off the glider.
Had he continued the tow to 2000' he could have chosen an upslope field. There were standing hay crops that would have prevented him hitting a fence.
Not much relevance to a twin, except that altitude gives you options, including discussing them on the radio, and think time.
Bottom Line: An immediate hurried landing is much less likely to succeed than one that's planned to an adequate runway or field.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BPF - I would tend to agree with you. The book numbers feel very optimistic. Maybe when she comes back with her newly overhauled engines will I see closer to these numbers.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,666
Received 327 Likes
on
180 Posts
Anyone recall an incident at Denham a good couple of decades ago concerning a Learjet or a Citation which tangled slightly with the hedge/fence either on approach or during a go around?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi jets are far more critical to things like temp and weight to determine their takeoff landing distances! Hence why going off the figures in the manual is vital and not a manufacturers marketing document 
Even in pistons how do you get your high altitude per cent power range figures from if the manufacturers speed are way off?
If your aircraft has almost time expired engines, is bug ridden or covered in dents add a percentage to cover or know your aircraft
Takeoff in a jet!! all you can do is stand on The brakes hit max N1 release the brakes and wait for VR!
If your heavy or it's hot that can take forever and the takeoff distance can vary considerably from light and cold!
There are so many other considerations is the runway wet ? How much headwind etc the manual is vital!
I believe a Citation operated out of Elstree but IMO that was crazy and it did crash! Not heard of the Denham overrun
Pace
Even in pistons how do you get your high altitude per cent power range figures from if the manufacturers speed are way off?
If your aircraft has almost time expired engines, is bug ridden or covered in dents add a percentage to cover or know your aircraft
Takeoff in a jet!! all you can do is stand on The brakes hit max N1 release the brakes and wait for VR!
If your heavy or it's hot that can take forever and the takeoff distance can vary considerably from light and cold!
There are so many other considerations is the runway wet ? How much headwind etc the manual is vital!
I believe a Citation operated out of Elstree but IMO that was crazy and it did crash! Not heard of the Denham overrun
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Oct 2013 at 09:59.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JetBlu
Looking at that list some very tasty machinery and loads of AeroStars have been there even though the runway is shorter than Denham at 650 M
Too me that Highlights the fact that a number of considerations need to be taken into account when using length limited runways.
Is the runway wet or dry!
how much standing water or ice?
what is the wind doing?
What is your loading like?
what is the temp like (30 degree in summer?)
In the event of an engine or other problem on takeoff can you stop or are you playing Russian Roulette?
As stated I have taken a Citation into Thruxton but with minimal fuel and no PAX so I stress the importance of checking the manual for each situation
Pace
Looking at that list some very tasty machinery and loads of AeroStars have been there even though the runway is shorter than Denham at 650 M
Too me that Highlights the fact that a number of considerations need to be taken into account when using length limited runways.
Is the runway wet or dry!
how much standing water or ice?
what is the wind doing?
What is your loading like?
what is the temp like (30 degree in summer?)
In the event of an engine or other problem on takeoff can you stop or are you playing Russian Roulette?
As stated I have taken a Citation into Thruxton but with minimal fuel and no PAX so I stress the importance of checking the manual for each situation
Pace
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace
Agreed. All of those factors need to be considered, but my point was I have done it, and it can be done.
I would also strongly recommend using the POH in association with personal experience.
Agreed. All of those factors need to be considered, but my point was I have done it, and it can be done.
I would also strongly recommend using the POH in association with personal experience.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes it's a Seneca ; ) I have had an engine vibration a few times in the 3000 hrs I had in them and worse! One observation is an engine vibration can appear to be from both when it's from one and you do need to get up to a safe altitude and work out what's happening and from which engine!
This guy appears to have thought oh my God both engined are vibrating I have to get it down before they both stop!
Our of control approach! Land at all costs with the inevitable off the end if the runway oh well : ( thankful no one was hurt
Act in haste repent in leisure springs to mind
Pace
This guy appears to have thought oh my God both engined are vibrating I have to get it down before they both stop!
Our of control approach! Land at all costs with the inevitable off the end if the runway oh well : ( thankful no one was hurt
Act in haste repent in leisure springs to mind
Pace
Although Elstree is officially shorter than Denham some would consider it effectively much longer. For take off on 26 the based King Air, the PC12s and regular Renaissance Commander visitor all use the "pan" which gives at least an extra 100 metres of paved (unlicensed of course), although the upslope is significant. At the other end there is a further 170 metres paved (again unlicensed and rough at the edges) with substantial grass run off area.
Most problems arise when 08 is in use for all the usual reasons.
Aerostars are rare but do sometimes visit.
Not saying these are my views, just the reality of what does happen there.
Most problems arise when 08 is in use for all the usual reasons.
Aerostars are rare but do sometimes visit.
Not saying these are my views, just the reality of what does happen there.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the wireless...
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph
Anyone recall an incident at Denham a good couple of decades ago concerning a Learjet or a Citation which tangled slightly with the hedge/fence either on approach or during a go around?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know Elstree well the upslope is quite steep on 26 ok for takeoff other than the initial steep start so slow acceleration but because of the trees difficult to use on landing! Also remember on 26 the rest of the runway is uphill albeit only slightly compared to the steep unlicensed bit!
So overall your takeoff distance will not meet level book figures!
On the 08 departure the steep unlicensed but will be near useless but you will get a downslope on the rest if the runway with a wall if trees in front of you
Pace
So overall your takeoff distance will not meet level book figures!
On the 08 departure the steep unlicensed but will be near useless but you will get a downslope on the rest if the runway with a wall if trees in front of you
Pace
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dependent upon conditions, it is better going out on 08 and in on 26, using ALL of the available asphalt. The C421 would very nearly eat it.
The only Lear over run at Northolt I can think about is here.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0Aqf_grTvNJ_Jg
The only Lear over run at Northolt I can think about is here.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0Aqf_grTvNJ_Jg
Guest
Posts: n/a
So the Blenheim overrun at Denham has faded from the Forum's memory?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...20%2011-87.pdf
SGC
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...20%2011-87.pdf
SGC
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,666
Received 327 Likes
on
180 Posts
Not the Lear at Northolt, nor the Citation at Fairoaks - remember both of these and they are both much more recent. Pretty certain the Denham Citation/Lear would probably have been the early 1980s - yikes, three decades ago. Damage if any was minimal, I'd think.
SGC, not from mine...
SGC, not from mine...
Last edited by treadigraph; 30th Oct 2013 at 21:12.