Breaking news on 3rd country licences
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A BASA has to be the right way forward
Anyway I hope you're not eventually right as it will stick EASA firmly as not a forward looking organisation but one driven by political and protectionism only
Face facts you will have to get a medical, do the 14 exams and you will have to do a flight check on all the types you intend to fly.
And going the other way to FAA we will have to get a medical, sit all the theory exams, do a flight check on every type that are intended to be operated.
I don't think the FAA will budge on the matter especially once the US pilots unions get wind of it.
We don't really cross swords, you say its never going to happen. I say don't be silly they are playing the medium to long game and it will happen if you like it or not. Tactical stays of execution are just that.
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Speaking as someone already dual licenced and compliant with the new law, I have locked horns with Pace many times on this subject and will say again I think he is pissing in the wind to put it bluntly.
There is no world in which which there will ever be a bilateral agreement where the current European training Infrastructure exists. A Bi lateral wipes out the European training industry at a stroke and that is never going to be agreed to in order to save Pace getting a medical and sitting a few exams. The FAA are never going to agree to annual IR and Class Rating testing which has always been part of the European demands and EASA are never going to agree to rolling currency.
The current conversion process is simple enough unless you are congenitally lazy or retarded.
Working under a flag of convenience always came with its dangers......
There is no world in which which there will ever be a bilateral agreement where the current European training Infrastructure exists. A Bi lateral wipes out the European training industry at a stroke and that is never going to be agreed to in order to save Pace getting a medical and sitting a few exams. The FAA are never going to agree to annual IR and Class Rating testing which has always been part of the European demands and EASA are never going to agree to rolling currency.
The current conversion process is simple enough unless you are congenitally lazy or retarded.
Working under a flag of convenience always came with its dangers......
Last edited by S-Works; 22nd Oct 2013 at 16:39.
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Bose and MJ
You may both be right but I ask you both one question ?
Why do you thing the Commision have delayed introduction for 1.5 years
Bit late getting everything together why not delay 6 months?
I also know as fact that even EASA are subject to regulating within existing EU law and I do not believe that to be the case infact ( a hint) I know that not to be be the case! So both chat to me when April 2015 looms ; )
I am sure you will both be proved right
Pace
You may both be right but I ask you both one question ?
Why do you thing the Commision have delayed introduction for 1.5 years
Bit late getting everything together why not delay 6 months?
I also know as fact that even EASA are subject to regulating within existing EU law and I do not believe that to be the case infact ( a hint) I know that not to be be the case! So both chat to me when April 2015 looms ; )
I am sure you will both be proved right
Pace
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Speaking as Head of Training of an ATO in my second job, let me ask you a question......
Do you think that I or anyone of the thousands of others in my position are going to support something that would decimate the European Flight Training Industry in a stroke in order you save you sitting the exams and flight tests that we have already sat?
If you think a few FAA holders feeling hard done by in order to save themselves the effort of becoming compliant is going to have a louder voice than the European training industry you have a real shock coming. EASA exists to support and regulate that industry as well as the commercial operations. Knocking that out would decimate them over night and believe me that will never happen.
So let's have the conversation in the future. In the meantime with all due respect I wish you would just either put up or shut up because your endless attempts at trying to drop pointless snippets at how you are going to be vindicated is a bore. Believe it or not you are in a tiny minority of people refusing to comply and I suspect that EASA are yanking your chain in the hope you go away.
Look on the bright side, I can point a dozen hopefuls in the direction of your employer who are compliant with the law and happy to jump in and replace you....
Just do the damn exams and flight test......
Do you think that I or anyone of the thousands of others in my position are going to support something that would decimate the European Flight Training Industry in a stroke in order you save you sitting the exams and flight tests that we have already sat?
If you think a few FAA holders feeling hard done by in order to save themselves the effort of becoming compliant is going to have a louder voice than the European training industry you have a real shock coming. EASA exists to support and regulate that industry as well as the commercial operations. Knocking that out would decimate them over night and believe me that will never happen.
So let's have the conversation in the future. In the meantime with all due respect I wish you would just either put up or shut up because your endless attempts at trying to drop pointless snippets at how you are going to be vindicated is a bore. Believe it or not you are in a tiny minority of people refusing to comply and I suspect that EASA are yanking your chain in the hope you go away.
Look on the bright side, I can point a dozen hopefuls in the direction of your employer who are compliant with the law and happy to jump in and replace you....
Just do the damn exams and flight test......
Last edited by S-Works; 22nd Oct 2013 at 21:29.
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Flight schools all over Europe training for EASA qualifications. Allowing people to go off and do FAA qualifications and then convert them under a bilateral agreement would do serious damage to European flight schools. That is where the really powerful political lobby will come from to block it. The CAAs take huge fees from European training as well as having a huge numbers of staff administering it and auditing it.
Can you imagine what would happen to that machine if people could just get trained under the much freer FAA system and then convert with minimal effort?
Can you imagine what would happen to that machine if people could just get trained under the much freer FAA system and then convert with minimal effort?
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Bose
Then I ask you again why do you think there has been a stay of execution for 1.5 years! It's your cage which is rattled not mine!
I am happy with the way this is panning out you obviously are not!
Let me ask you another question are FAA ATPs worse that JAA / EASA ATPs ? You know they are not so come out of the dark ages and misplaced self protectionist mode and support what should be the case which is a harmonisation of all licences world wide! transport Canada can do it!
Also I would really like to know your route to JAA licences as I am told through now closed loopholes!
So it's not me that is rattled I just placed news of the extension for others here to see
As for destroying the training industry what a load of bunkum!
The only thing which is destroying that industry are huge costs and red tape! Hence why most of Even JAA /EASA flight training is state side and not here which is almost ground school only!
I presume you have heard of the free market rules ?
Maybe you and others have it wrong!!!
We have priced ourselves out of the market so please legislate to protect us is NOT the way forward in a Free world!
Offer something as good or better than the FAA system and you might just find more young people without very wealthy parents start coming into the industry again!
Pace
Then I ask you again why do you think there has been a stay of execution for 1.5 years! It's your cage which is rattled not mine!
I am happy with the way this is panning out you obviously are not!
Let me ask you another question are FAA ATPs worse that JAA / EASA ATPs ? You know they are not so come out of the dark ages and misplaced self protectionist mode and support what should be the case which is a harmonisation of all licences world wide! transport Canada can do it!
Also I would really like to know your route to JAA licences as I am told through now closed loopholes!
So it's not me that is rattled I just placed news of the extension for others here to see
As for destroying the training industry what a load of bunkum!
The only thing which is destroying that industry are huge costs and red tape! Hence why most of Even JAA /EASA flight training is state side and not here which is almost ground school only!
I presume you have heard of the free market rules ?
Maybe you and others have it wrong!!!
We have priced ourselves out of the market so please legislate to protect us is NOT the way forward in a Free world!
Offer something as good or better than the FAA system and you might just find more young people without very wealthy parents start coming into the industry again!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Oct 2013 at 14:09.
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My cage is not rattled at all. Just fed up of you banging on about how you don't see how you should adopt the rules and regulations of the jurisdiction that you operate in.
I quite agree that there is no difference between an EASA ATPL and an FAA ATP. If you are an EASA licence holder and want to fly in the US or Canada then you have to convert. If you are an FAA certificate holder and want to fly in Europe you have to convert. No difference, its just that Europe has adopted exams that you don't want to or are incapable of completing.
When I converted from FAA to Transport Canada I had to jump through the required hoops. I did not sit and complain about it. The same as for the various other places I have had to convert to.
For you to convert to an EASA licence you have to take the exams, there is no compulsory ground school or minimum hours of study. As you have already pointed out your FAA ATP already grants you equivalent knowledge to an EASA one so the exams should be a doddle.
Personally having done both the European and the FAA Exams and training I really don't see what your problem is.
As far as your dispersions on how you may think I gained my JAA licences I can assure you that despite the assurances you may have had from Mr H, I did my exams with CATS and my flight training at Bonus and tested with CAA examiners. CAA Staff Examiners did my IR and my CPL. What I did was take advantage of the shorter conversion process. Something that is not a closed loop hole and is equally available to you.
I quite agree that there is no difference between an EASA ATPL and an FAA ATP. If you are an EASA licence holder and want to fly in the US or Canada then you have to convert. If you are an FAA certificate holder and want to fly in Europe you have to convert. No difference, its just that Europe has adopted exams that you don't want to or are incapable of completing.
When I converted from FAA to Transport Canada I had to jump through the required hoops. I did not sit and complain about it. The same as for the various other places I have had to convert to.
For you to convert to an EASA licence you have to take the exams, there is no compulsory ground school or minimum hours of study. As you have already pointed out your FAA ATP already grants you equivalent knowledge to an EASA one so the exams should be a doddle.
Personally having done both the European and the FAA Exams and training I really don't see what your problem is.
As far as your dispersions on how you may think I gained my JAA licences I can assure you that despite the assurances you may have had from Mr H, I did my exams with CATS and my flight training at Bonus and tested with CAA examiners. CAA Staff Examiners did my IR and my CPL. What I did was take advantage of the shorter conversion process. Something that is not a closed loop hole and is equally available to you.
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Bose
We are never going to see eye to eye on this and it is all becoming too personal so best left! I have put up the extension which is fact anything else is guesswork on my part and yours so we can open up the discussion in a year and a half when we know what's on the table then!
If its whats on the table now I will be really surprised amd you can throw your hat in the air!
If its an FAA /Transport Canada style conversion we will both be really surprised and I will throw my hat in the air.
It will be something in-between my guess more to your requirements but who knows! I dont and neither do you.
They are not practical exams and full of stuff like how many molecules make up a windscreen (sarcastic) 4 JAA Pilots I spoke with all say they would never walk into an exam tomorrow and pass even though they passed years back because a lot of the stuff is not practical or relevant and all 4 stated that they had forgotten most of it.
With AN2 s post below I also agree that it is the regulators and flight schools who are decimating their own industry! you do not need any help from N reg or the FAA as you are all pushing your own self destruct button. The sad thing is you are all too blinkered to see that you are fighting the wrong enemy.
if I want to fly an EASA registered aircraft I need to hold the correct licences to do so! If I want to fly an FAA registered aircraft I need the correct licences to do so. But being required to hold licences which have NO validity on the aircraft being flown is madness
Bose you and MJ both say you are determined as is the training industry to get rid of N reg in Europe? Do you really think that will sort your problems ?
Those are comments of fools and neither ofvyou are fools
N reg in Europe is a result of oppressive over regulation and high costs not the cause of the decimation of your industry! You have to deal with the cause and that where you are fools in not seeing the picture!
With that last point I am out of this thread so you and MJ can have a field day as you two and me make up 95% of the posts in this thread in personal squabbles
Pace
We are never going to see eye to eye on this and it is all becoming too personal so best left! I have put up the extension which is fact anything else is guesswork on my part and yours so we can open up the discussion in a year and a half when we know what's on the table then!
If its whats on the table now I will be really surprised amd you can throw your hat in the air!
If its an FAA /Transport Canada style conversion we will both be really surprised and I will throw my hat in the air.
It will be something in-between my guess more to your requirements but who knows! I dont and neither do you.
For you to convert to an EASA licence you have to take the exams, there is no compulsory ground school or minimum hours of study. As you have already pointed out your FAA ATP already grants you equivalent knowledge to an EASA one so the exams should be a doddle.
With AN2 s post below I also agree that it is the regulators and flight schools who are decimating their own industry! you do not need any help from N reg or the FAA as you are all pushing your own self destruct button. The sad thing is you are all too blinkered to see that you are fighting the wrong enemy.
if I want to fly an EASA registered aircraft I need to hold the correct licences to do so! If I want to fly an FAA registered aircraft I need the correct licences to do so. But being required to hold licences which have NO validity on the aircraft being flown is madness
Bose you and MJ both say you are determined as is the training industry to get rid of N reg in Europe? Do you really think that will sort your problems ?
Those are comments of fools and neither ofvyou are fools
N reg in Europe is a result of oppressive over regulation and high costs not the cause of the decimation of your industry! You have to deal with the cause and that where you are fools in not seeing the picture!
With that last point I am out of this thread so you and MJ can have a field day as you two and me make up 95% of the posts in this thread in personal squabbles
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 24th Oct 2013 at 16:50.
Maybe we could get out of this contest here by simply asking the question of why the current situation exists in the first place.
If EASA were to compete with the rest of the world in terms of attractiveness of their FCL rather than trying to run a system which has all of GA in decline since ever it saw the light of day as JAR, we would simply not see people voting with their feet.
There is NO reason at all that European exams should be as complex, expensive and impractical as they are, nor does it help flight schools and other FTOs in the long run. Yes, it causes training to be more expensive, but you don't make more money that way because people stay away.
Why does the US still have a florishing flight school industry whereas Europes schools and clubs are fighting for survival?
I can see where Pace and the tens of thousands of FAA licensed pilots are coming from. I can also see Bose and MJ's point of view. I agree with both!
No, we do NOT want students to flock away to the US to do their thing, they should do it right where they are going to fly and they should leave the money they pay at home.
No, I do NOT agree with the presumtion that there should be an unilateral reckognition process in Europe while the US still asks every single European pilot to redo the whole examination process! Either there is MUTUAL reckognition, that is a BASA, or Europe has no reason to accept FAA licenses any more than the FAA accepts theirs.
But again: Personally I see the question asked and the fight fought here is the wrong fight.
Europe needs to become comparable and competitive with the US system so that people will flock back to European schools and into the European system out of their own accord. Yes, that would be feasible but it means a massive change of heart within the Brussels and Köln crowds.
France has realized this and acted accordingly, at least where the IR is concerned. In that regard, it appears that EASA is relenting now as well.
But that is not all. Not by a long run.
If we want to have a thriving industry again here, and not only in training because without GA flying outside of training, the question of FTO's themselves becomes quite pointless, we need a legal system we can work with and which is tailored to each licence steps individual needs rather than the unnecessary ballast we see today. We need maintenance rules which allow the running of an airplane in Europe for the same price or even more economical than keeping and running an N-Reg airplane. We need to improve the way European infrastructure is being treated, get rid of professional hinderers and hasslers.
THAT, guys, would be an improvement everyone here in Europe would profit from and make flags of convenience flying go away by it's own.
If EASA were to compete with the rest of the world in terms of attractiveness of their FCL rather than trying to run a system which has all of GA in decline since ever it saw the light of day as JAR, we would simply not see people voting with their feet.
There is NO reason at all that European exams should be as complex, expensive and impractical as they are, nor does it help flight schools and other FTOs in the long run. Yes, it causes training to be more expensive, but you don't make more money that way because people stay away.
Why does the US still have a florishing flight school industry whereas Europes schools and clubs are fighting for survival?
I can see where Pace and the tens of thousands of FAA licensed pilots are coming from. I can also see Bose and MJ's point of view. I agree with both!
No, we do NOT want students to flock away to the US to do their thing, they should do it right where they are going to fly and they should leave the money they pay at home.
No, I do NOT agree with the presumtion that there should be an unilateral reckognition process in Europe while the US still asks every single European pilot to redo the whole examination process! Either there is MUTUAL reckognition, that is a BASA, or Europe has no reason to accept FAA licenses any more than the FAA accepts theirs.
But again: Personally I see the question asked and the fight fought here is the wrong fight.
Europe needs to become comparable and competitive with the US system so that people will flock back to European schools and into the European system out of their own accord. Yes, that would be feasible but it means a massive change of heart within the Brussels and Köln crowds.
France has realized this and acted accordingly, at least where the IR is concerned. In that regard, it appears that EASA is relenting now as well.
But that is not all. Not by a long run.
If we want to have a thriving industry again here, and not only in training because without GA flying outside of training, the question of FTO's themselves becomes quite pointless, we need a legal system we can work with and which is tailored to each licence steps individual needs rather than the unnecessary ballast we see today. We need maintenance rules which allow the running of an airplane in Europe for the same price or even more economical than keeping and running an N-Reg airplane. We need to improve the way European infrastructure is being treated, get rid of professional hinderers and hasslers.
THAT, guys, would be an improvement everyone here in Europe would profit from and make flags of convenience flying go away by it's own.
