cabair ripoff or bar room bull ?
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Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
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SB the last time I rented from the wycombe air center I was in almost the same situation as the guy I,m told wanted to rent from c*bair.
WAC did NOT insist on a "cross channel check" all they wanted was a quick check ride with an instructor as I had not flown the BE76 for about 4 months.
The check consisted of an engine failure at about 600ft and an assymetric landing.
In my opinion the WAC had struck the right balance between air safety and cost to the customer.
WAC did NOT insist on a "cross channel check" all they wanted was a quick check ride with an instructor as I had not flown the BE76 for about 4 months.
The check consisted of an engine failure at about 600ft and an assymetric landing.
In my opinion the WAC had struck the right balance between air safety and cost to the customer.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Its a bit different "Up North". Even a trip to Calais with an instructor is going to be something like 6 hours at dual-rate. The Isle of Man (Special Branch proceedures still apply) is much nearer. The renters round here expect you to have enough sense to find out what the proceedures are, and to talk to pilots who have done similar trips before. If you don't show enough common sense to do that then they won't rent you an aircraft anyway.
All the requirements are published, they're not secret, and there have been many magazine articles which cover all aspects of channel crossing.
The weather in any part of the UK can and does change rapidly sometimes. This is all part of what we study and train for as pilots.
I particularly liked the story of the cross-channel check being performed by an instructor who had never flown across the channel. Now that does sound like it was driven by financial rather than safety considerations.
All the requirements are published, they're not secret, and there have been many magazine articles which cover all aspects of channel crossing.
The weather in any part of the UK can and does change rapidly sometimes. This is all part of what we study and train for as pilots.
I particularly liked the story of the cross-channel check being performed by an instructor who had never flown across the channel. Now that does sound like it was driven by financial rather than safety considerations.
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I have a Frozen ATPL and 1500 hours, yet I have never flown across the channel and never would without a checkout with an instructor. In my opinion to have the arrogance to say it is not worth doing implies poor airmanship.
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I agree totally that if the instructor has no experience then the whole thing is a waste of time and as already said is simply a case of the organisation and the instructor lining their pockets.
To be honnest, there is probably no real requirment for the actual check to be made across the water.
The course can be done anywhere. This is especially so when one considers that on the day in question, there may be a great horizon and no haze while the next time, there might be a deep haze layer.
Furthermore, there is little point showing someone the finer points of French Customs when their next trip will be to Ireland.
As a safety tool, the whole idea is great. However a once yearly lecture and dip in the local pool is far better than 100 nice day flights across a wide river.
DFC
To be honnest, there is probably no real requirment for the actual check to be made across the water.
The course can be done anywhere. This is especially so when one considers that on the day in question, there may be a great horizon and no haze while the next time, there might be a deep haze layer.
Furthermore, there is little point showing someone the finer points of French Customs when their next trip will be to Ireland.
As a safety tool, the whole idea is great. However a once yearly lecture and dip in the local pool is far better than 100 nice day flights across a wide river.
DFC
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Come on Greaser
You know to fly, you know to read your instruments, you know how to speak on the radio. So what is the difference other than the accent of the controller? Read the regulations for the country you want to fly too study the map and make sure that you are prepared. Flying in France is not the same as in Germany or Holland or in the UK. Do you mean that you have to fly with an instructor every time you fly into a new country? I am not having a go at you, you can do it and you will do it, it is only the fear of the unknown that speaks out. You are welcome to join me anytime you want, I don't have your raitings nor your hours, just email me.
Beagle and other talked about S.B requirements, customs etc. All of this can be and should be done on the ground before take off. You want to make sure that the guy knows his FIR boundary calls and regulation than give him a copy of Bottlang and ask him about it afterwards, match him with someone who did the trip before than the two can cost share. An airfield in France, Germany or Belgium is no different to an airfield in the UK. As a side question, How many clubs provide the renter with an up to date airfield plates, if at all? No, I don’t buy the safety issue for the instructor’s presence, the same can be achieved at a lower cost to the renter.
AC-DC
You know to fly, you know to read your instruments, you know how to speak on the radio. So what is the difference other than the accent of the controller? Read the regulations for the country you want to fly too study the map and make sure that you are prepared. Flying in France is not the same as in Germany or Holland or in the UK. Do you mean that you have to fly with an instructor every time you fly into a new country? I am not having a go at you, you can do it and you will do it, it is only the fear of the unknown that speaks out. You are welcome to join me anytime you want, I don't have your raitings nor your hours, just email me.
Beagle and other talked about S.B requirements, customs etc. All of this can be and should be done on the ground before take off. You want to make sure that the guy knows his FIR boundary calls and regulation than give him a copy of Bottlang and ask him about it afterwards, match him with someone who did the trip before than the two can cost share. An airfield in France, Germany or Belgium is no different to an airfield in the UK. As a side question, How many clubs provide the renter with an up to date airfield plates, if at all? No, I don’t buy the safety issue for the instructor’s presence, the same can be achieved at a lower cost to the renter.
AC-DC
Hmmm - I suppose that it would be rather fraudulent for an organisation to insist that you took an FI who'd never been there before AND paid extra for the privilege on your first trip across the Channel. For which you'd feel rightly miffed...
Which is one reason why we charge the same rate Dual or Solo - so it won't cost anyone any more to make their first 'going foreign' flight performing the duties of P1C under the supervision of the FI pilot-in-command. Except that, by that definition, it will be logged as P1C U/S but will be counted in full toward licence experience requirements subject to the certification by the pilot-in-command (see App B to section A of LASORS, Case B).
Plus we deduct the 'drawback' from the hirer's bill to reduce the cost to the hirer yet further.....
Which is one reason why we charge the same rate Dual or Solo - so it won't cost anyone any more to make their first 'going foreign' flight performing the duties of P1C under the supervision of the FI pilot-in-command. Except that, by that definition, it will be logged as P1C U/S but will be counted in full toward licence experience requirements subject to the certification by the pilot-in-command (see App B to section A of LASORS, Case B).
Plus we deduct the 'drawback' from the hirer's bill to reduce the cost to the hirer yet further.....
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AC-DC you should get an award for the most common sence packed into one short post !.
Quite frankly I am appalled that a holder of a ATPL has not the confidence to cross the channel without a "checkout".
Greaser this is not a slur on you infact I applaud your attitude to flight safety but I have to ask the question "what is the flight training industry doing if after passing an ATPL course a pilot is not confident to cross the channel ?".
Quite frankly I am appalled that a holder of a ATPL has not the confidence to cross the channel without a "checkout".
Greaser this is not a slur on you infact I applaud your attitude to flight safety but I have to ask the question "what is the flight training industry doing if after passing an ATPL course a pilot is not confident to cross the channel ?".
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I am still a PPL student but I have had a cross channel lesson. It was my best lesson yet and I found it very worthwhile. I was intruduced to several new things like leaning the mixture and instrument flying, we had to fly back on an IFR flight plan because it was overcast in France. I probably will never get to do that again. The flight was with an instructor who wasnt my usual instructor and I think that was a good thing. I plan to fly to the channel islanda somtime after gaining my PPL and I will take an instructor with me because though I have read the theory of SVFR I would like some practical guidence on it.
