Aileron into spin for quicker recovery?
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Aileron into spin for quicker recovery?
Mellow greetings,
in accordance with my nickname this question is based on my (luckily only virtually lethal) recent experiences with the WWI PC sim Rise of Flight. With some aircraft, the standard PARE spin recovery with aileron neutral does not work, but putting aileron into the spin works remarkably well. Granted, the relation of adverse yaw to rudder authority may have been different in these old biplanes, but the basic logic of adverse yaw working against the spin should still apply in contemporary spamcans, too, or am I missing something? (probably so)
(Please no "that game like any PC sim has so nothing to do with real airplane behaviour"-discussion; while it is of course a mere PC sim, modelling of flight behaviour is apparently as good as it gets in this field nowadays, and at least to me, the most remarkable and important difference is that in real life no one shoots at me.)
in accordance with my nickname this question is based on my (luckily only virtually lethal) recent experiences with the WWI PC sim Rise of Flight. With some aircraft, the standard PARE spin recovery with aileron neutral does not work, but putting aileron into the spin works remarkably well. Granted, the relation of adverse yaw to rudder authority may have been different in these old biplanes, but the basic logic of adverse yaw working against the spin should still apply in contemporary spamcans, too, or am I missing something? (probably so)
(Please no "that game like any PC sim has so nothing to do with real airplane behaviour"-discussion; while it is of course a mere PC sim, modelling of flight behaviour is apparently as good as it gets in this field nowadays, and at least to me, the most remarkable and important difference is that in real life no one shoots at me.)
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I don't think WW1 aeroplanes were certificated to respond to 'standard spin recovery'. However, I can testifly that flat spin recovery in the Yak52 (as taught to me by Genna) calls for in-spin aileron.
It's logical if you think about; in-spin aileron reduces the AoA of the inner wing and thus aids it to un-stall.
It's logical if you think about; in-spin aileron reduces the AoA of the inner wing and thus aids it to un-stall.
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There is no such thing as a 'standard spin recovery'!!! 
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Not quite sure what Beags means by that. Every light aeroplane I've flown that's cleared for spinning have followed the mantra 'throttle closed, ailerons central, full opposite rudder (look at the turn indicator, not the ball), and stick forward until the spin stops, then centralise and recover to staright and level from the dive'.
I know Beags has more extensive experience than light aeroplanes alone, so perhaps that underlies his statement.
I know Beags has more extensive experience than light aeroplanes alone, so perhaps that underlies his statement.
Well, it can get complicated
Alexander Schleicher offers a spin kit for the ASK-21. Recently they did a major revision which goes into interesting details, including how ailerons affect spin characteristics:http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/t...10_TM04B_E.pdf
Every aircraft is different; so I would not advise using the manufacturer's advice on a single type on anything else
Every aircraft is different; so I would not advise using the manufacturer's advice on a single type on anything else
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SSD, I think beags means read the poh first is all.
MOST aircraft recover from the usual inputs but I was shocked to read a certain French aircraft requires full back stick for the recovery (Blimey
) thus debunking the ssr.
MOST aircraft recover from the usual inputs but I was shocked to read a certain French aircraft requires full back stick for the recovery (Blimey
) thus debunking the ssr.
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Noone seems to be backing BEagle up all that much, so I'll support his argument.
There is a published standard stall recovery, as well all know and love, pitch forward to lower the angle of attack and the wings will certainly unstall, use power to reduce the height loss and then recover to a climb. Works in every aircraft you could imagine.
Spinning is very different, as it is affected far more by the wing shape and the aircraft's centre of gravity, therefore the spin recovery is specific to the aircraft (hence no standard spin recovery).
For example a PA-38 POH calls for the spin recovery as follows
So very clearly lead with the rudder, as it hits the stop only then applying forward elevator. I've also flown aircraft which call for forward elevator before the rudder, or both simultaneously. Or simply to neutralise the elevator while applying anti-spin rudder.
At the same time, there are aircraft out there where if you are spinning and you simply let go of all the controls you will recover. The cessna 152 aerobat and grob 115 come to mind in this case. Try that in a Tomahawk and you will kill yourself.
So to reiterate, there is no standard spin recovery, it is very aircraft specific, so whatever aircraft you are trying to simulate you should look for the pilot handling notes for that aircraft, and if it was never cleared for intentional spinning then it may struggle to come out of a spin with the "usual" recovery technique.
There is a published standard stall recovery, as well all know and love, pitch forward to lower the angle of attack and the wings will certainly unstall, use power to reduce the height loss and then recover to a climb. Works in every aircraft you could imagine.
Spinning is very different, as it is affected far more by the wing shape and the aircraft's centre of gravity, therefore the spin recovery is specific to the aircraft (hence no standard spin recovery).
For example a PA-38 POH calls for the spin recovery as follows
‘Spin recovery
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the
direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the
control wheel full forward and be ready to relax
the forward pressure as the stall is broken.
3. As rotation stops, centralize the rudder and
smoothly recover from the dive.’
1. Apply and maintain full rudder opposite the
direction of rotation.
2. As the rudder hits the stop, rapidly move the
control wheel full forward and be ready to relax
the forward pressure as the stall is broken.
3. As rotation stops, centralize the rudder and
smoothly recover from the dive.’
At the same time, there are aircraft out there where if you are spinning and you simply let go of all the controls you will recover. The cessna 152 aerobat and grob 115 come to mind in this case. Try that in a Tomahawk and you will kill yourself.
So to reiterate, there is no standard spin recovery, it is very aircraft specific, so whatever aircraft you are trying to simulate you should look for the pilot handling notes for that aircraft, and if it was never cleared for intentional spinning then it may struggle to come out of a spin with the "usual" recovery technique.
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Aileron into spin for quicker recovery?
Then there's the Victor where you pop the braking parachute and hope it pulls the tail up before ripping out of its mounting if you were careless enough to get it into a spin in the first place!
CT-4 requires inspin aileron and full forward stick to recover within 1 1/2 turns.
Pitts S-2A flight manual specifies inspin aileron for recovery from flat spin.
Cessna Aerobat - inspin aileron will flatten the spin.
The Laser I had could recover with inspin aileron almost regardless of what you did with the other controls.
Pitts S-2A flight manual specifies inspin aileron for recovery from flat spin.
Cessna Aerobat - inspin aileron will flatten the spin.
The Laser I had could recover with inspin aileron almost regardless of what you did with the other controls.
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but I was shocked to read a certain French aircraft requires full back stick for the recovery (Blimey) thus debunking the ssr.
You SHOULD however still read the POH and that is the correct recovery for the aircraft you are flying.
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At the same time, there are aircraft out there where if you are spinning and you simply let go of all the controls you will recover. The cessna 152 aerobat ... come to mind in this case.
Beggs-Mueller technique: when Beggs was trialling it he discovered spin modes (flaps up) in the Cessna 150 that would not recover with that technique but required a definite push on the yoke. So, certainly would not recover just controls free.
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spin recovery
FIRST find out whether the aircraft was designed to FAR 23.
if it was then the normal spin recovery will apply.
why? because the design was changed and adjusted until it did that.
if it wasn't designed to FAR 23 then you may be in for some very rude surprises in the real world. it may take thousands and thousands and thousands of feet and then a bit more to recover.
be careful out there.
if it was then the normal spin recovery will apply.
why? because the design was changed and adjusted until it did that.
if it wasn't designed to FAR 23 then you may be in for some very rude surprises in the real world. it may take thousands and thousands and thousands of feet and then a bit more to recover.
be careful out there.
From AC 23-8:
So, amount of forward elevator control may differ between types certified to FAR 23 for normal category and for a fully developed spin (utility and acrobatic category) there may be other additional or different actions. eg I had previously mentioned the placard in the Pitts S-2A and the technique for the FAR 23 certified CT-4.
Recoveries should consist of throttle reduced to idle, ailerons neutralized, full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required to get the wing out of stall and recover to level flight. For acrobatic category spins, the manufacturer may establish additional recovery procedures, provided they show compliance for those procedures with this section.
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My beloved Chipmunk carries a placard "spin recovery may require full forward stick. See also flight manual". The stick may reach a 'false full forward' as it comes up against more air loads which can feel like the forward stop. The placard is there to remind pilots that they need to keep pushing, if neccessary to the real full forward stop, to effect spin recovery.
Oh, and make sure the wheel brakes are fully 'off' as well (it was an instinctive pre-take off action for me to pull the brake lever back and let it go, thus releasing any brake, followed by a final 'full and free' control check immediately before the take off roll). A bit of brake left on from taxying will restrict the available rudder travel and you won't get full rudder.
Oh, and make sure the wheel brakes are fully 'off' as well (it was an instinctive pre-take off action for me to pull the brake lever back and let it go, thus releasing any brake, followed by a final 'full and free' control check immediately before the take off roll). A bit of brake left on from taxying will restrict the available rudder travel and you won't get full rudder.
A bit of brake left on from taxying will restrict the available rudder travel and you won't get full rudder.
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The Muller technique I was demonstrated and have tried in several types was as follows.
Power off.
Full opposite rudder.
RELEASE stick.
Centralize and recover from dive as the rotation stops.
The stick, in this case, moves forward on its own and slightly 'in-spin' aileron.
Fascinating the first few times to sit there and just watch it.
Power off.
Full opposite rudder.
RELEASE stick.
Centralize and recover from dive as the rotation stops.
The stick, in this case, moves forward on its own and slightly 'in-spin' aileron.
Fascinating the first few times to sit there and just watch it.
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At the same time, there are aircraft out there where if you are spinning and you simply let go of all the controls you will recover. The cessna 152 aerobat and grob 115 come to mind in this case. Try that in a Tomahawk and you will kill yourself.
I have to say spinning a sim and spinning a real aeroplane are very different...yes i know we aren't allowed to say this... BUT the human factors involved can not be ruled out ... The disorientation (which way is the spin?) the g, everything will impair your recovery and if the spin does not slow or stop as one expects or just out of surprise, because your life is on the line, you may panic and start doing something stupid.
Like others have said (especially Beagles sentiments) read the POH, do some spins with qualified instructor so you know how NOT to enter the spin and what to do if it happens.
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And of course if the spin has gone at all 'flat', recovery will first bring a speed-up of rate of rotation before it recovers. That can, in the general sensory overlaod the pilot is 'enjoying', be misleading and a bit scary, even if you are expecting it.