Where is your head?
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Where is your head?
First time poster long time lurker.
I have a question about something I can't seem to find anywhere on the web. I'm a fairly low time Canadian PPL pilot (98 hours, licensed at 45) who's flown at 6 different airports and 9 different instructors over the last 7 years.
While trying to do a checkout at my latest location the instructor said everything was great except where I put my head during landing. Specifically, when landing the C172/C152 I need to put my head against the left window to "look down the side of the aircraft".
I have never heard of this, my old instructors have never heard of this, my friends have never heard of this and apparently the internet as far as I can see have never heard of this. I have always rounded out keeping my body straight and looking as far down the runway as I can and as I flare I do lose sight of the end of the runway but use my peripheral vision to asses descent rate and being centered on the runway.
He is saying that my landings are unsafe, despite flying 25 hours PIC in the last 12 months at my last location and having 3 different instructors there including a instructor/flight examiner sign off on me. I've never damaged an aircraft during landings doing it the way I've been taught and yet he won't sign off on me renting because until I can land it with my head against the window I'm "unsafe". Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Friends who are flight instructors have said to talk to the CFI (Chief flight instructor not certified flight instructor) since they've never heard of it, and I'd just like another opinion to make sure my friends aren't trying to cover my poor technique.
Thanks
I have a question about something I can't seem to find anywhere on the web. I'm a fairly low time Canadian PPL pilot (98 hours, licensed at 45) who's flown at 6 different airports and 9 different instructors over the last 7 years.
While trying to do a checkout at my latest location the instructor said everything was great except where I put my head during landing. Specifically, when landing the C172/C152 I need to put my head against the left window to "look down the side of the aircraft".
I have never heard of this, my old instructors have never heard of this, my friends have never heard of this and apparently the internet as far as I can see have never heard of this. I have always rounded out keeping my body straight and looking as far down the runway as I can and as I flare I do lose sight of the end of the runway but use my peripheral vision to asses descent rate and being centered on the runway.
He is saying that my landings are unsafe, despite flying 25 hours PIC in the last 12 months at my last location and having 3 different instructors there including a instructor/flight examiner sign off on me. I've never damaged an aircraft during landings doing it the way I've been taught and yet he won't sign off on me renting because until I can land it with my head against the window I'm "unsafe". Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Friends who are flight instructors have said to talk to the CFI (Chief flight instructor not certified flight instructor) since they've never heard of it, and I'd just like another opinion to make sure my friends aren't trying to cover my poor technique.
Thanks
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you dont show any evidence of poor technique.
you are being told a load of nonsense.
have some confidence there boy.
during my training a bazillion years ago now I had an instructor that insisted on low approaches to the runway ...to the point where I had to power on to climb up over the boundary fence on each approach and let down to the touchdown.
nobody could understand his take on the training and so he was awarded the DCM.
(dont come monday, you're sacked).
your guy seems to have developed a similar oddity.
focus away in the distance to judge height and use your peripheral vision to judge position. thats the way you do it.
if your landings are gentle things then you are doing it correctly.
if you keep on banging it on then he may be trying to give you a clue as to how to remedy a fault. ...but it seems an odd suggestion to put your head on the window.
you are being told a load of nonsense.
have some confidence there boy.
during my training a bazillion years ago now I had an instructor that insisted on low approaches to the runway ...to the point where I had to power on to climb up over the boundary fence on each approach and let down to the touchdown.
nobody could understand his take on the training and so he was awarded the DCM.
(dont come monday, you're sacked).
your guy seems to have developed a similar oddity.
focus away in the distance to judge height and use your peripheral vision to judge position. thats the way you do it.
if your landings are gentle things then you are doing it correctly.
if you keep on banging it on then he may be trying to give you a clue as to how to remedy a fault. ...but it seems an odd suggestion to put your head on the window.
I will have to try the head against the window technique to see if I am missing something. I don't think I will do it with my son as I don't want him to try it, nor with the instructor as I don't want him to think I am bonkers.
Is it possible that you touch down in a crab and he is trying to think of creative ways to help you line up? Mandating the head against the window seems like an odd way to compensate but there is a lot I don't know.
Is it possible that you touch down in a crab and he is trying to think of creative ways to help you line up? Mandating the head against the window seems like an odd way to compensate but there is a lot I don't know.
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I'm learning in a C172 in Canada and that isn't a technique I've heard off and god knows I've been through enough "techniques" trying to nail those elusive landings.
I'd want to know what is it that he considers "unsafe" about your landings.
Centreline? landing with side load on the gear? no flare and too bouncy? flaring too high?
Without that information anything else is pointless speculation. If he can't tell you then that IS a problem.
I'd want to know what is it that he considers "unsafe" about your landings.
Centreline? landing with side load on the gear? no flare and too bouncy? flaring too high?
Without that information anything else is pointless speculation. If he can't tell you then that IS a problem.
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To me the only issue here would be if you are landing nose wheel first, or all three together, as long as when you land there is a positive interval (ideally a couple of seconds or more, but at least a positive one) between the mains and the nose touching that should be fine - but IMHO the head down the side is not the way to not cure this if that is the problem.
Last edited by foxmoth; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:55.
is he short? when doing my line training in the Islander years ago my then chief pilot suggested I move my booklet of airfield plates out of the space between the windshild and instrument panel to make it possible to see down the side in the flare. I couldn't work it out at the time as I am tall and could see over the top. I cannot see that this should be much of an issue in a 172 though, unless that is the reason then it is a total load of rubbish that he is telling you.
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Where is your head?
I am short
Enough that I need 3 cushions ( 1 under and 2 behind)
I don't land this way
I look down the runway
Hard to make a judgement without being in the plane and I'm but a mere student but landing flat ( no flare) is the recipe for bouncing in my experience
You should be flaring consistently in each landing it is good technique
But if you are bothered then get another opinion
Enough that I need 3 cushions ( 1 under and 2 behind)
I don't land this way
I look down the runway
Hard to make a judgement without being in the plane and I'm but a mere student but landing flat ( no flare) is the recipe for bouncing in my experience
You should be flaring consistently in each landing it is good technique
But if you are bothered then get another opinion
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When the mains touch down the nose is in the air for about 2 seconds or so.
I'll talk to the CFI and see what he says, maybe it's an instructor ism, or a school ism.
I'll talk to the CFI and see what he says, maybe it's an instructor ism, or a school ism.
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It sounds as if the issue is not flaring enough. Landing a light aircraft flat is a bad thing and will certainly result in losing the nosewheel on a 152 eventually, slightly less of an issue on a 172.
To land you should arrive just above the runway at the correct speed as per POH and then close the throttle and slowly pull back on the column until the aircraft stops flying and touches down. If you have it right the yoke should be pretty much all the way back at that point and the nose fairly high
To land you should arrive just above the runway at the correct speed as per POH and then close the throttle and slowly pull back on the column until the aircraft stops flying and touches down. If you have it right the yoke should be pretty much all the way back at that point and the nose fairly high
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In the flare hold yoke back pressure till the stall warner is going off (should be same/similar attitude as on take-off) and once main wheels are down gently lower the nose. If really bumpy, ie bumpy grass strip or even on concrete/tarmac add a little power when main wheels are down to keep the nose off as long as possible.
Go to another airfield where the CFI is not bonkers. Could be a way to keep you there and acquire more money...or am I being cynical?
Go to another airfield where the CFI is not bonkers. Could be a way to keep you there and acquire more money...or am I being cynical?
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When the mains touch down the nose is in the air for about 2 seconds or so.
all aeroplanes need to be landed on the main wheels in a tail low attitude.
your landings are very close to a dangerous situation. you may hear a lot about taildraggers and "ground loops", and never suspect that you could have the problem in a tricycle aircraft. the reality is though that if you wheelbarrow it on in the landing, that is you land on the nose wheel first, you can be set up for the most violent of ground loops. violent enough to destroy the aircraft.
what you need to be doing is hold the aircraft off a little more. as the aircraft slows in the flare ease back the elevator more so that you land in a more nose up attitude. make nose up landings your habit and you will be a lot safer.
the way you are landing now all it takes is a gust, or the lull between gusts and you could bend an aeroplane.
dont feel special, most of us here have been through this ourselves.
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The only time I've heard anyone talk about a head-to-one-side technique is in tail draggers. In some of these (e.g. Tiger Moth) it's the only way you can see ahead, during the hold-off, when 3-pointing it.
Is the instructor of an age where he might have learnt to fly in Tiger Moths?
OC619
Is the instructor of an age where he might have learnt to fly in Tiger Moths?
OC619
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Quote:
When the mains touch down the nose is in the air for about 2 seconds or so.
the problem is that you are landing with the aircraft in a poor attitude.
all aeroplanes need to be landed on the main wheels in a tail low attitude.
When the mains touch down the nose is in the air for about 2 seconds or so.
the problem is that you are landing with the aircraft in a poor attitude.
all aeroplanes need to be landed on the main wheels in a tail low attitude.
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I love learning new stuff, especially when it initially appears bonkers, could you perhaps encourage the instructor to come on here and explain the reasoning behind this technique?
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Uh, I could try.
He said next flight he's going to tape A4 sheets across my view to force me to look out the side. Despite my initial reaction saying that's crazy dangerous, we'll see how that goes.
It just sucks to pay extra money for dual instruction after already being licensed.
He said next flight he's going to tape A4 sheets across my view to force me to look out the side. Despite my initial reaction saying that's crazy dangerous, we'll see how that goes.
It just sucks to pay extra money for dual instruction after already being licensed.
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surely that's a recipe for landing left wheel first? how many of us can hold the wings perfectly level while sticking our head all the way to one side?
For the flare i'm always looking at the far end of the runway, and then (if there is one) the fence, if i can see over the fence i'm too high!
Look to the end of the runway judge with your peripheral vision when to flare... its all about feeling, you'll know when you are too high or too fast, the trick is what to do about it!
but the instructor sounds a bit odd...... talk to the CFI especially if he is being painful in signing you off.
For the flare i'm always looking at the far end of the runway, and then (if there is one) the fence, if i can see over the fence i'm too high!
Look to the end of the runway judge with your peripheral vision when to flare... its all about feeling, you'll know when you are too high or too fast, the trick is what to do about it!
but the instructor sounds a bit odd...... talk to the CFI especially if he is being painful in signing you off.
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Hmm, Another quite dramatic sounding statement, are you sure, you are getting his point and not taking his words too literally?, , is he perhaps inferring that you are not using your peripheral vision?.
Have to say, 98 hours in 7 years, is not conducive to maintaining skills
Have to say, 98 hours in 7 years, is not conducive to maintaining skills
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This is known as the "Labrador" landing technique.
Not after the place - but after the dog, hanging its head out of the side of a moving car, ears flapping. For Pilot's its especially effective when wearing a leather flying helmet so it can flap in the wind like ears.
On a more serious note....
Introducing this kind of random technique to someone who already holds a licence sounds very odd to me.
Your visual senses and equilibrioception (inner ear) senses are quite focused in the final moments of an approach. How much time passes between that initial sense (from visual and vestibular systems) of a wing lift from a gust and the physical correction with the yoke? Its miliseconds, and its instinctive. By the time your at 100 hours - as you are - you will trust your senses and automatically react accordingly.
If you havent been trained in this 'labrador' technique from the start then the last thing you want to be doing now is waving your head around on short finals, creating conflicting information to your senses.
Otherwise the next sensation you'll feel is likely to be the shudder of the 172 off the side of the runway and you wondering how you got there.
I would be really interested to hear this instructors logic!
Not after the place - but after the dog, hanging its head out of the side of a moving car, ears flapping. For Pilot's its especially effective when wearing a leather flying helmet so it can flap in the wind like ears.
On a more serious note....
Introducing this kind of random technique to someone who already holds a licence sounds very odd to me.
Your visual senses and equilibrioception (inner ear) senses are quite focused in the final moments of an approach. How much time passes between that initial sense (from visual and vestibular systems) of a wing lift from a gust and the physical correction with the yoke? Its miliseconds, and its instinctive. By the time your at 100 hours - as you are - you will trust your senses and automatically react accordingly.
If you havent been trained in this 'labrador' technique from the start then the last thing you want to be doing now is waving your head around on short finals, creating conflicting information to your senses.
Otherwise the next sensation you'll feel is likely to be the shudder of the 172 off the side of the runway and you wondering how you got there.
I would be really interested to hear this instructors logic!