IMC?

[PPLvirgin]

Hi all,

anyone have any idea when IMC will be available to train for? is it being taken out?
is it worth gaining or is it better to wait for the possibility of a new restricted IR course?

how useful is it? although its said not legal to use imc abroad unless you have permission what is the likelyhood of getting permission?

regards

T-Dog!

[Johnm]

Do a search on the topic then you will get the JFDI message

[wb9999]

There are many threads explaining the current status of the IMC rating, or IR (restricted) as it is now called.

The rating is only valid in the UK. It cannot be used abroad under any circumstances.

[18greens]

It might not be valid abroad but if Harry clampers gets you it works just fine in any country ( the alternative being to ignore all of the instrument messages and crash). You just cant rely on it for nav when abroad. But why would you want to go abroad when we have such lovely imc weather here. Also I've used it lots when it's technically vmc but in effect imc ( crossing the channel on a really hazy day)

The jfdi message is the one you have to take. You won't regret it.

[Fuji Abound]

wb9999 There are many threads explaining the current status of the IMC rating, or IR (restricted) as it is now called.

The rating is only valid in the UK. It cannot be used abroad under any circumstances.

I suspect still not strictly true.

For holders of non easa licences ( not yet converted) it lifts the vfr limits and on top restriction any where and can be used any where with the consent of the national authority.

Of course under easa it becomes an irr to which easa restrictions apply.

[wb9999]

I suspect still not strictly true.

For holders of non easa licences ( not yet converted) it lifts the vfr limits and on top restriction any where and can be used any where with the consent of the national authority.

Increased VFR limits and VFR on top for non-EASA licences does not mean the IMC rating is valid outside of UK airspace and CI. The CAA alter your PPL privileges, and these are applicable worldwide.

Legally, the IMC rating can be used outside of UK airspace with the consent of the national authority, but in practical terms no other country has given that consent or is likely to do so.
(CI & IoM excepted)

[Fuji Abound]

Increased VFR limits and VFR on top for non-EASA licences does not mean the IMC rating is valid outside of UK airspace and CI. The CAA alter your PPL privileges, and these are applicable worldwide.

Semantics. It is because you have an IMC rating that you have these additional privileges, which are very useful, and historically another important reason for the IMC rating. In other words not mentioning this element fails to give the entire picture.

Legally, the IMC rating can be used outside of UK airspace with the consent of the national authority, but in practical terms no other country has given that consent or is likely to do so.

I know of cases where another country has given consent.

[wb9999]

Semantics. It is because you have an IMC rating that you have these additional privileges, which are very useful, and historically another important reason for the IMC rating. In other words not mentioning this element fails to give the entire picture.

It's an important distinction though. Some people can take it to mean that the IMC rating is therefore recognised in other other countries, when that is not correct at all.

I know of cases where another country has given consent.

Can you provide more info? That would be very useful to know for everyone with an IMC or contemplating obtaining an IMC.

[Fuji Abound]

It's an important distinction though. Some people can take it to mean that the IMC rating is therefore recognised in other other countries, when that is not correct at all.

I agree. I wasnt being pedantic, but it is an important benefit which can be overlooked if one assumes the rating has no relevance abroad. Until the EIR there is every relevance to be able to fly over an under cast to your VMC destination. Climbing out of the UK IMC and routing across the channel en route south is a classic example.

I know of three cases where DGAC has given written confirmation that the IMC rating is valid in France.

[wb9999]

I know of three cases where DGAC has given written confirmation that the IMC rating is valid in France.

Was this on an individual case basis, or were DGAC saying that it is valid for everyone with an IMCr?

[Whopity]

I know of three cases where DGAC has given written confirmation that the IMC rating is valid in France.

In contravention of UK law which the pilot of a G Reg has to comply with.

How valid is a note from a policeman saying you can speed?

[BackPacker]

In contravention of UK law which the pilot of a G Reg has to comply with.

But probably legal if it was an F-reg. Then it's the DGAC which sets all the rules, including the privileges and restrictions that apply to the validation of your UK-issued PPL by the DGAC. (At least, pre-EASA.)

But I agree with the sentiment here: I'd like to see the exact wording of the DGAC (in French if you don't mind) regarding what exactly was accepted.

I suspect that all the DGAC accepted was the fact that the IMC lifted the VFR-on-top restriction, but not that the IMC would give the privilege of flying in IMC conditions, OCAS, in France.

[wb9999]

A quick check of the ANO shows that is not legal to use the IMC rating outside of the UK. It specifically states it is only valid when in the UK. There is not even a mention of the Channel Islands or IoM, but the CAA's skills test guidance notes for the IMCr state "It is only valid for flight in UK territorial airspace, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man airspace".

So even if the French say it is valid, the UK ANO does not. You have to comply with the more restrictive regulations, which means no IMCr outside of the UK, IoM and CI.

[BackPacker]

True, but the ANO is not applicable when flying an F-reg. When you fly an F-reg it's the French equivalent of the ANO that is applicable. Under JAR-FCL, there will be something in there similar to the following in the ANO:

Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
- and -
A JAA licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, a licence rendered valid under this Order.

(ANO part 6, para 50.1 and 62.5 respectively - I'm sorry but my French is not good enough to search for the actual French article.)

This means that your UK licence is now considered the equivalent of a French licence, and is thus valid for flight on an F-reg. But this also means that the DGAC rules apply, and that the DGAC can give you additional privileges and set additional restrictions if they want to. After all, you are now flying under French law, not under UK law. Normally they will simply state that all restrictions on the original licence apply, and will not confer any additional privileges, but my point is: They don't have to do that. It would be perfectly legal for them to say "Hey, you've got a UK IMC rating. Congratulations. Based on that, we'll give you a French equivalent of that, valid in France only, even though your UK IMC rating is only valid in the UK." (Well, they would be saying that in French of course.)

Now I've never heard of the situation where the French authorities actually did this. So I'm very interested in hearing about these. (The reason I find this very unlikely is that there is no French equivalent to the IMC. So embedding such a validation in the rest of the legal framework, and dealing with such a validation on a practical, day-to-day basis, would be too complex, IMHO.)

The exact same thing, by the way, happens to the UK NPPL, Dutch RPL and various other sub-ICAO sub-PPL licences. Yes, these licences are only valid in national airspace and in an aircraft registered with the national authority. But a foreign country can issue a generic or specific law or exception, to accept such a (foreign) licence as the equivalent of their local licence.

[wb9999]

BackPacker, I don't think that would work.

You are still using a UK licence in France (unless you have a French issued licence), and so the UK ANO would still be applicable. Where there are conflicts between the UK ANO (for flight crew licensing) and French ANO (for aircraft, airspace, rules of the air etc), the more restrictive apply. If the UK ANO says the IMC rating is not valid abroad then you can't get any more restrictive than that.

I don't believe there is a French equivalent of the IMCr, so even under French privileges you would need a full IR to fly IMC.

BTW It would be useful if the OP can confirm what type of licence he/she holds. I suspect an EASA/JAR licence.

[Fuji Abound]

That is not what the ANO says.

The privileges of the IMC Rating may be
exercised in UK territorial airspace. The IMC Rating may
not be used in the airspace of any other Country unless
permission to do so has been given by the appropriate
authority of that Country.

I think you may have also misunderstood para 1 of sch 7 which deals with the entitlement within the UK but because it deals with the UK you cant read that to mean it excludes elsewhere.

The letters I have seen from DGAC are quite clear and are in English - there is no room for misunderstanding. They are between DGAC and the individuals concerned so I am not about to "publish" them on an open forum as that would be entirely inappropriate. Given the changes under EASA I suspect they will not have long term validity in any event but there are further changes a foot.

[wb9999]

Fuji Abound, do you have a link to where you are getting that extract of the ANO from?

The current ANO states

Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes)
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), within the United Kingdom an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes) entitles the holder of a United Kingdom Private Pilot’s
Licence (Aeroplanes) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane without being subject
to the restrictions contained in paragraph (2)(c) or (f) of the privileges of the United
Kingdom Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes).

(my bold)

[Fuji Abound]

Not being cheeky but as I commented before that says all that needs to be said - it doesn't say the rating is not valid outside the UK, it does say what the entitlement is within the UK.

The other reference originally came form LASORS 2010

LASORS 2010: the guide for pilots - Civil Aviation Authority: Personnel Licensing Department - Flight Crew - Google Books

but hence my earlier comment that it is the ANO that is relevant.

[BackPacker]

You are still using a UK licence in France (unless you have a French issued licence), and so the UK ANO would still be applicable.

I don't think the UK ANO would be applicable. The UK ANO can only be applicable within the territory of the UK (& IoM and such), or to a G-reg aircraft flying abroad (as established by the Chicago Convention). It can not be applicable to someone flying an F-reg in France, for instance. Laws don't work that way. In order to fly an F-reg you have to have something that is acceptable to the French authorities.

That's why there will be an article in the French laws, equivalent to the one I quoted from the ANO, that renders a UK licence valid for flight in an F-reg aircraft. It's the logical consequence of the implementation of JAR-FCL, many years ago. But since the French law renders the licence valid, from that point on it's the French law which applies, and which may grant further privileges and set further restrictions.

Now obviously the French are not that silly, and just like elsewhere there will be a further clause somewhere in French law that states that all the original UK restrictions on your licence will apply. But my point is: It's the French who decided to put that clause in, and thus the French who may grant exceptions to that clause. Not the UK authorities, as they have no jurisdiction.

By the way, this is the exact same reason why the letters that Fuji refers to, are written by the French DGAC, and not by the UK CAA.

The reason for the specific clause "within the UK" in the ANO is to prevent people from exercising their IMC privileges outside the UK in a G-reg. That's a situation where the ANO does have jurisdiction (as agreed in the Chicago Convention), and the ANO wants to prevent that. But there's no need for the ANO to prevent people from exercising the IMC privileges in an F-reg, as the ANO doesn't have jurisdiction over that situation in the first place.

Question: If you have a valid UK IMC rating, are you allowed to exercise the privileges of that rating, within the UK, in an F-reg?

(I think not, as you need a licence issued or rendered valid by the DGAC to fly in an F-reg. And the DGAC - apart from the letters that Fuji mentioned, and that were issued on an individual basis - doesn't render an IMC rating valid as there's no French equivalent.)

Anyway, it's all very hypothetical, especially now that EASA has taken over. Although I remain highly interested in the documents that Fuji has. Fuji, is there no way you can quote the relevant bits and pieces from that document, while protecting the identity/innocence/virginity/whatever of the parties?

[wb9999]

The only place in the ANO where the privileges of an IMCr is stipulated is the paragraph I quoted above - so it is only "within the United Kingdom". Outside of the UK an IMCr holder only has normal PPL privileges.