PA28 Single Door Safety
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Many thanks for the helpful responses. Some interesting stories also to consider.
I actually did half of my PPL on a Warrior II, and never really had any concerns about the safety of the design. It was a pain to get in and out of, but that was it.
It was only after I recently received my PPL and considered the possibility of taking up friends and family that I began to worry much more about the safety of it.
With my current situation, I would probably need to decide between either the C172 or the PA28, I wouldn't be able to fly both. The two aircraft are based with two different schools/clubs and to hire both I'd need to pay two annual subscriptions. It's not a huge amount (£120 in each case), but I'd rather avoid it if there is little to no benefit.
I am aware also that there are more ideal aircraft with regards to this matter, but as I am in no position to join a syndicate/group or buy outright, I have no choice but to hire from schools/clubs/FTOs etc and that means I am restricted to the typical PA28/C172 aircraft that they tend to use.
I think I'll ask around a bit more before making a decision. If it is worth it, I may end up deciding just to put up with paying two annual subscriptions and simply use the PA28 when I'm on my own and the C172 for flights with passengers.
Thanks again for all the input.
I actually did half of my PPL on a Warrior II, and never really had any concerns about the safety of the design. It was a pain to get in and out of, but that was it.
It was only after I recently received my PPL and considered the possibility of taking up friends and family that I began to worry much more about the safety of it.
With my current situation, I would probably need to decide between either the C172 or the PA28, I wouldn't be able to fly both. The two aircraft are based with two different schools/clubs and to hire both I'd need to pay two annual subscriptions. It's not a huge amount (£120 in each case), but I'd rather avoid it if there is little to no benefit.
I am aware also that there are more ideal aircraft with regards to this matter, but as I am in no position to join a syndicate/group or buy outright, I have no choice but to hire from schools/clubs/FTOs etc and that means I am restricted to the typical PA28/C172 aircraft that they tend to use.
I think I'll ask around a bit more before making a decision. If it is worth it, I may end up deciding just to put up with paying two annual subscriptions and simply use the PA28 when I'm on my own and the C172 for flights with passengers.
Thanks again for all the input.
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As an aside, there's a whole world of other (arguably better) aircraft beyond the PA28 and C172. Just because you did your training in those, doesn't mean they are the only choice post PPL.
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On the question of PA28 windows, a hammer, unless quite big, would be of limited use since they are not glass and the hammer is liable to bounce back and hit you.
However, the windows are only secured by flimsy aluminium clamping strips that are themselve secured to the airfame by few self-tappers which will be well worn in your typical several times re-glazed aircraft. Ultimately the strength of the window will depend on the type of mastic used and how well cured it is rather than any bolting in place.
A good shove would certainly push out the pilot's window due to the weakness of the DV opening. In an adreneline fuelled escape I doubt if any of the windows would resist a light kicking. It might be worth explaining that to PAX once they are belted in and can't run away.
However, the windows are only secured by flimsy aluminium clamping strips that are themselve secured to the airfame by few self-tappers which will be well worn in your typical several times re-glazed aircraft. Ultimately the strength of the window will depend on the type of mastic used and how well cured it is rather than any bolting in place.
A good shove would certainly push out the pilot's window due to the weakness of the DV opening. In an adreneline fuelled escape I doubt if any of the windows would resist a light kicking. It might be worth explaining that to PAX once they are belted in and can't run away.
As irritating as the PA28 single door is, I've never heard of anyone perishing as a direct result of it!
FBW
where the passenger escaped from the ditching but the pilot did not. It is not known what the exact problem was that prevented the pilot leaving the aircraft, but a door on his side might have allowed successful egress.
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 17th Jun 2013 at 20:54. Reason: Spelling
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If you have an "elf and insanity" approach to flying light aircraft my advice is to give up now, perhaps take up playing bridge, but watch out the edges of some cards can be quite cutting.
Worry first about how you deal with gusting crosswinds, unexpected weather, how well you can handle an EFATO or control restriction rather than whether you might be the last person to leave the PA28, which as Captain I hope you would understand is your moral, if not legal duty.
Worry first about how you deal with gusting crosswinds, unexpected weather, how well you can handle an EFATO or control restriction rather than whether you might be the last person to leave the PA28, which as Captain I hope you would understand is your moral, if not legal duty.
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Coventry, November 1989. A PA28-180 suffered EFATO at 70ft. The pilot managed to get the aircraft down to the runway but was going too fast to stop. The aircraft went over the peri track, through the fence and across the main road coming to rest in a ditch. Eventually the two occupants managed to get out because the fuselage (the wings had been ripped off by the fence posts) was lying on the pilots side. Had it been lying the other way and the wings (replete with fuel) remained on - who knows..?
I used to own that aircraft as part of a group (before the accident) and when I looked at the wreck, decided that while I might fly a PA28 again, I wouldn't take my loved ones with me in one.
The math is very simple. If you do have a potentially survivable accident, your chances of escape from a heavy impact are 50% less than a two door a/c. So why risk it with the plethora of other types available?
And to those who think kicking a window out is a possible option - well maybe it possibly is but take a look at some images of medium impact crashed light a/c. In most cases, crawling out of the wreckage is the only option.
I used to own that aircraft as part of a group (before the accident) and when I looked at the wreck, decided that while I might fly a PA28 again, I wouldn't take my loved ones with me in one.
The math is very simple. If you do have a potentially survivable accident, your chances of escape from a heavy impact are 50% less than a two door a/c. So why risk it with the plethora of other types available?
And to those who think kicking a window out is a possible option - well maybe it possibly is but take a look at some images of medium impact crashed light a/c. In most cases, crawling out of the wreckage is the only option.
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Speaking from experience..........I was under instruction in the left hand seat of an AA-5 Cheetah which stalled onto a hedge and almost immediately burst into flames. Being a low wing aircraft with backward sliding canopy, I was able to open the canopy and haul myself out (albeit suffering burns on the way!). The instructor did not get out and I can only assume he was incapacitated.
Had it been a single door aircraft with the door on the starboard side, I don't think I'd be here today. I appreciate there are different accident scenarios but personally I think it's mad to only have one door and I avoid those type of aircraft whenever possible.
Had it been a single door aircraft with the door on the starboard side, I don't think I'd be here today. I appreciate there are different accident scenarios but personally I think it's mad to only have one door and I avoid those type of aircraft whenever possible.
And if you dig in the nosewheel in an aircraft with a sliding or clamshell canopy and flip over? Only Cessna/Citabria/Piper cub type doors are likely to open, if you failed to open them before the crash.
(Most of my flying is with clamshell doors.)
(Most of my flying is with clamshell doors.)
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PA38 miserable ?
I think not ! The pepole who deride this aircraft ether don't understand it or don't have the skill to fly it with confidence.
I think not ! The pepole who deride this aircraft ether don't understand it or don't have the skill to fly it with confidence.
I fly the PA28 as well and the single VERY large door is fine, i just brief my pax on order of departure. Front Right PAX first followed by Rear Right Pax and the Rear Left PAX, I stay till last.
Plus the front screen is pretty big and would probably be short work for a crash axe, plus the seats fold very far forward, getting out would not be a big issue.
I guess the plus on the 172 is that i get to shut and confirm the door status as closed from the outside, this can be difficult on the PA28.
Plus that goddamn over head locking bollocks, which on a nice new one would be fine but a 70's A/C with worn clips tends to need more attention.
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Thanks again for the input guys.
True, but unfortunately none of those are available to me as I am restricted to hiring from schools/clubs etc as a result of my personal situation. There are a number of groups in my local area that fly airplanes without the issue being discussed here but I just can't financially justify buying an airplane or a share with the amount of flying I intend to do over the next couple of years.
Obviously developing flying skills in order to reduce the possibility of such a situation occurring to begin with is more important, but it still doesn't mean this issue is irrelevant.
I'm not concerned about being the last to leave the airplane, I'm concerned about anyone being able to exit at all in certain extreme cases.
Just slightly O/T, how helpful would the on board fire extinguisher be in such a situation? I've seen plenty of reports of people killed in airplane accidents as a result of the post-impact fire rather than the crash itself.
As an aside, there's a whole world of other (arguably better) aircraft beyond the PA28 and C172. Just because you did your training in those, doesn't mean they are the only choice post PPL.
Worry first about how you deal with gusting crosswinds, unexpected weather, how well you can handle an EFATO or control restriction rather than whether you might be the last person to leave the PA28, which as Captain I hope you would understand is your moral, if not legal duty.
I'm not concerned about being the last to leave the airplane, I'm concerned about anyone being able to exit at all in certain extreme cases.
Just slightly O/T, how helpful would the on board fire extinguisher be in such a situation? I've seen plenty of reports of people killed in airplane accidents as a result of the post-impact fire rather than the crash itself.
Originally Posted by Odai
Just slightly O/T, how helpful would the on board fire extinguisher be in such a situation? I've seen plenty of reports of people killed in airplane accidents as a result of the post-impact fire rather than the crash itself.
I was a fireman in a former life. Those BCF extinguishers are damned good, but, like any extinguisher, if you can't get to the seat of the fire, they're as useless as anything else.
Odai,
Moving away from the single-door issue, my recommendation is to pay only one subscription and go with the C172. The PA-28 and the C172 are both fine aircraft, but the Cessna wins hands down for passenger flying, because of the great downwards view. As a bonus, the annual subscription you saved buys you one more hour!
Concerning fire-extinguishers, I had to use one once. Not after a crash, but when trying to hand-prop a Citabria on a cold winter's day at a gliding club. I was in the cockpit and after numerous starting attempts, the engine backfired and a fire started in the cowling.
The thing I remember is how quickly it is possible to vacate the cockpit of a Citabria when you are motivated by adrenaline. I even remembered to take the extinguisher with me!
Moving away from the single-door issue, my recommendation is to pay only one subscription and go with the C172. The PA-28 and the C172 are both fine aircraft, but the Cessna wins hands down for passenger flying, because of the great downwards view. As a bonus, the annual subscription you saved buys you one more hour!
Concerning fire-extinguishers, I had to use one once. Not after a crash, but when trying to hand-prop a Citabria on a cold winter's day at a gliding club. I was in the cockpit and after numerous starting attempts, the engine backfired and a fire started in the cowling.
The thing I remember is how quickly it is possible to vacate the cockpit of a Citabria when you are motivated by adrenaline. I even remembered to take the extinguisher with me!
Last edited by India Four Two; 20th Jun 2013 at 04:25.
Está servira para distraerle.
The forced landing drill on a PA 28 calls for the door to be unlatched before touchdown.
It seems probable that a passenger could hold this door ajar at touchdown.
Airmanship dictates that the pilot always has a forced landing field and an emergency escape route in mind at all times.
If it's your day for a flip and burn then that's kismet. But it seems a very arguable point that a high wing Cessna will flip before a Cherokee.
Better petition the CAA to allow pilots to carry cyanide pills in case of slow cooking possibility since you aren't be allowed to play the gentleman and carry a handgun.
It seems probable that a passenger could hold this door ajar at touchdown.
Airmanship dictates that the pilot always has a forced landing field and an emergency escape route in mind at all times.
If it's your day for a flip and burn then that's kismet. But it seems a very arguable point that a high wing Cessna will flip before a Cherokee.
Better petition the CAA to allow pilots to carry cyanide pills in case of slow cooking possibility since you aren't be allowed to play the gentleman and carry a handgun.
