Latest EASA PPL IR looking good especially for FAA IR holders
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but with an FAA IR and purely convert the IR with a flight test and oral on return?
IFR time is a stupid concept which no one logs. IFR can be anything really, bimbling along in class G "In accordance with IFR" or on an "IFR flight plan with ATC directed routing". However one thing which is undeniable is "Actual instrument time" or "Simulated Instrument Time" and which everyone logs. I have done many IFR trips in Gin Clear weather purely because it is a lot easier to negotiate airspace (i.e. you don't have to). I have no idea how many hours "IFR flight" I have done at all!
Speaking of sabotage in the UK....When I did my JAA PPL in the USA in 2000, I came back to the UK and did a check out at a large flying club. On the taxi out, chatting with the old boy FI, he asked where I learned to fly. When I said the USA his snooty response was "oh we don't like those here". I thought Fjsdfwk you mate, and actually at the end of the check out he did admit that "I flew very well".
Luckily the second FI I flew with learned to fly in South Africa, so he didn't have an attitude.
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IFR time is a stupid concept which no one logs. IFR can be anything really, bimbling along in class G "In accordance with IFR" or on an "IFR flight plan with ATC directed routing".
http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measure...ory%20Note.pdf Para 2.4.2.9.
Here's the draft regulation which details the conversion rules (A.2.IR(A))
8. Applicants for the competency-based modular IR(A) holding a Part-FCL PPL or
CPL and a valid IR(A) issued in compliance with the requirements of Annex 1 to the
Chicago Convention by a third country may be credited in full towards the training
course mentioned in 4 above. In order to be issued the IR(A), the applicant shall:
(a) successfully complete the skill test for the IR(A) in accordance with Appendix
7;
(b) demonstrate to the examiner during the skill test that he/she has acquired an
adequate level of theoretical knowledge of air law, meteorology and flight
planning and performance (IR); and
(c) have a minimum experience of at least 50 hours of flight time under IFR as
PIC on aeroplanes.
CPL and a valid IR(A) issued in compliance with the requirements of Annex 1 to the
Chicago Convention by a third country may be credited in full towards the training
course mentioned in 4 above. In order to be issued the IR(A), the applicant shall:
(a) successfully complete the skill test for the IR(A) in accordance with Appendix
7;
(b) demonstrate to the examiner during the skill test that he/she has acquired an
adequate level of theoretical knowledge of air law, meteorology and flight
planning and performance (IR); and
(c) have a minimum experience of at least 50 hours of flight time under IFR as
PIC on aeroplanes.
EASA-FCL.010:
‘Flight time under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)’ means all flight time during which the aircraft is being operated under the Instrument Flight Rules.
FCL.600 IR — General
Except as provided in FCL.825, Operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.
Except as provided in FCL.825, Operations under IFR on an aeroplane, helicopter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction.
So regardless of how many hours you have logged as "IFR" in your logbook in the past, for the purpose of the conversion you can only count those hours where you were the PIC of an airplane that was operated under IFR rules, and you held an IR.
That doesn't make those "UK-style IFR in VMC outside CAS" logging entries retroactively wrong or illegal, but just means you cannot use them as credit towards the license conversion.
At least, that's the way I see things. It looks pretty watertight to me.
Last edited by BackPacker; 5th Jun 2013 at 14:43.
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That doesn't make those "UK-style IFR in VMC outside CAS" logging entries retroactively wrong or illegal, but just means you cannot use them as credit towards the license conversion.
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If you had a valid IR while bimbling, then I don't see why not.
My comment is directed at non-IR holders who could fly IFR in the UK, as long as they maintained VMC, remained OCAS and complied with a few other rules. In fact, that kind of IFR was the only way you could fly at night if you did not have an IR or IMC.
As EASA-FCL now clearly states that you can only operate under IFR if you have an IR or EIR, I can't imagine they intend to let those UK-style non-IR IFR hours count towards license (*) conversion.
(*) Spelled as "license" since you are converting a US license to an EASA licence.
My comment is directed at non-IR holders who could fly IFR in the UK, as long as they maintained VMC, remained OCAS and complied with a few other rules. In fact, that kind of IFR was the only way you could fly at night if you did not have an IR or IMC.
As EASA-FCL now clearly states that you can only operate under IFR if you have an IR or EIR, I can't imagine they intend to let those UK-style non-IR IFR hours count towards license (*) conversion.
(*) Spelled as "license" since you are converting a US license to an EASA licence.
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flight time under ifr only starts counting after you ave got your ir.
And, ultimately, the acceptance of previous training will be at the hands of the FTO, who will have zero commercial incentive to accept any of it. So any ambiguity will be resolved in their favour
Last edited by peterh337; 6th Jun 2013 at 06:45.
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And, ultimately, the acceptance of previous training will be at the hands of the FTO, who will have zero commercial incentive to accept any of it. So any ambiguity will be resolved in their favour
In my experience of speaking to a good number of people (and in my personal experience) doing the FAA to JAA conversion, I never met a single one who felt the ATO had required them to do any more than the minimum hours needed to be ready for the test.
I know of one exception () who feels the ATOs are a bit of a scam, using all sorts of tricks, like the 170A, to get people to spend more money on training they don't need. But that is an unusual exception and otherwise I think people will be able to depend on ATOs judging competence fairly.
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An EASA full IR doesn't require a colour safe pass.
They have moved the colour safe to the CPL requirements.
They have moved the colour safe to the CPL requirements.
I know this is in the new proposal, but it is new to me that it is already like that.
I'm restricted day only being color unsafe and I have asked CAA several times during the last years if I could train for an IR rating and have been denied every time.
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I know of one exception () who feels the ATOs are a bit of a scam,
£200 + VAT per hr for a FNPT2, £350+VAT per hr for a Duchess, £150+VAT per hr for instructor (it is IR training after all!), all to fly between Bournemouth, Yeovil, Southampton and Alderney! Oh and don't forget the 170A, plus the Duchess, so add another grand. Don't forget the CAA test fee either, though of course this is nothing to do with the ATO.
This is the situation my buddy encountered when he converted the FAA to JAA IR. He did it in 15 hrs (10 FNPT2) + 2ish hrs for the test, and it cost him near on 10 grand. All this for a bit of paper even though he was already perfectly well qualified to fly IFR and had done for a while under the N reg. this doesn't include the ground school either which adds another grand plus significant time input. Plus accommodation too, the school only flew 1 hr per day with him so he sat twiddling his thumbs in rented accommodation for the rest of the time.
I guess this is why FAA IR holders object to "conversions" with an ATO as it essentially means we sign a cheque for 10 grand for a new bit of laser printed paper. Conversely in the USA, you employ a freelance CFII and pay him or her directly if you so wish and fly as much or as little as you wish. Oh yea, and you don't have to wear shirt with stripes and black trousers and you don't get a bollocking for walking out to the aircraft with a baseball cap on!
Interestingly I flew a flight sim in the USA which was equivalent to an FNPT 2. In fact it WAS an FNPT 2 under a different authority. Software was EXACTLY the same, it could have been an FNPT 2 with the right certification, and it was only $95 per hour.
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This is the situation my buddy encountered when he converted the FAA to JAA IR. He did it in 15 hrs (10 FNPT2) + 2ish hrs for the test,.
That was my point, the ATO did not scam him for unnecessary training.
Flying is expensive in the UK. I am not defending that, although I tend to think anyone who thinks they can run an ATO with lower costs is welcome to try. It's a business I would not touch with a barge pole. As I understand it, no-one is forced to go to an ATO and they do publish their prices. There is a difference between a reasonably competitive market which ends up with a high price point and a scam.
The high cost of training can either be
a) because the ATOs are a secret money-making machine, lavishing returns on employees and owners through their scammily-high pricing
or
b) the ATOs costs are high because of the perfect storm of UK circumstances of provincial airports that charge £100 for a light twin approach, fuel at £2/l, CAA approval charges etc etc etc
I have a view that it's b. But anyone convinced it's "a" should surely consider going into the ATO business?
Last edited by 421C; 7th Jun 2013 at 07:44.
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it does seem to be the south coast that rapes the punters
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Of course the 170A "flight test" is a moneymaking scam, because by definition you are not going forward for the 170A until you are ready for the real IR test, so this is just another way to get an extra £1k or so from the average ATPL punter who is ready for the IRT and doesn't know any better.
And since there are no set standards for the 170A, the FTO can just fail you, and get another £1k. The one I had was a complete farce, with the examiner not liking power checks with tailwind, not liking my perfectly reasonable choice of alternate, etc.
However recent changes mean the FTO is no longer obliged to give you the 170A course completion certificate upon completion of the approved course (which then enabled you to book the IRT with the CAA directly) so the old scam has been formalised in favour of the industry.
When everything has been said and done, gigabytes of bandwidth used on the internet talking about stuff, very little actually changes in reality because the people are the same and their commercial motivations are the same.
And since there are no set standards for the 170A, the FTO can just fail you, and get another £1k. The one I had was a complete farce, with the examiner not liking power checks with tailwind, not liking my perfectly reasonable choice of alternate, etc.
However recent changes mean the FTO is no longer obliged to give you the 170A course completion certificate upon completion of the approved course (which then enabled you to book the IRT with the CAA directly) so the old scam has been formalised in favour of the industry.
When everything has been said and done, gigabytes of bandwidth used on the internet talking about stuff, very little actually changes in reality because the people are the same and their commercial motivations are the same.
Last edited by peterh337; 11th Jun 2013 at 09:14.
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I was talking about flying schools.
And there is very good reason why Aberdeen is expensive. They don't want GA there. So NATS fire on a navigation charge, Landing fee through the roof and mandatory handling as well.
Just the same as MAN,LGW,STN take your pick of other international airports in the south that everyone avoids in a SEP.
If you had flown to Inch or Dundee you would have been fine.
And there is very good reason why Aberdeen is expensive. They don't want GA there. So NATS fire on a navigation charge, Landing fee through the roof and mandatory handling as well.
Just the same as MAN,LGW,STN take your pick of other international airports in the south that everyone avoids in a SEP.
If you had flown to Inch or Dundee you would have been fine.
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The one I had was a complete farce
However recent changes mean the FTO is no longer obliged to give you the 170A
course completion certificate upon completion of the approved course (which then
enabled you to book the IRT with the CAA directly) so the old scam has been
formalised in favour of the industry.
When everything has been said and
done, gigabytes of bandwidth used on the internet talking about stuff, very
little actually changes in reality because the people are the same and their
commercial motivations are the same.
course completion certificate upon completion of the approved course (which then
enabled you to book the IRT with the CAA directly) so the old scam has been
formalised in favour of the industry.
When everything has been said and
done, gigabytes of bandwidth used on the internet talking about stuff, very
little actually changes in reality because the people are the same and their
commercial motivations are the same.
Yes, you need a course completion certificate.
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I did say with one exception
And a lot of the punters took 80-100hrs to do their ME IRs (min time is 55hrs).
Yes, he went along with it. One needs the job...
An often expressed sentiment in the trade is that the 170A flight test, which has no set standard so the FTO can repeat it several times, having the punter over a barrel especially at such a late stage in his IR training, has been used to make the FTO's first time IR pass rates (which are published) look good. What isn't published of course is the # of hours they took or how much money they spent.
It may be true that a lot of FAA PPL/IR holders did their JAA IR in the minimum time of 15hrs but that's because they have a lot of instrument experience.
Not quite, you need a recommendation for test
I recall reading a CAA document, about a year ago, which basically said that the option to use a 170A examiner from a different FTO is being removed. It used to live here... I thought this was an odd move, especially in view of Cabair's then very recent bankrupcy and the number of nearly-done-CPL/IRs who were left hanging by their goolies and looking at spending some thousands re-doing some training which they had already done.
Last edited by peterh337; 17th Jun 2013 at 09:41.