Piggy back FAA PPL
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Piggy back FAA PPL
I have a UK PPL plus UK IR. I fly an N-reg aircraft and do this with an FAA licence piggy-backed on my UK licence. My question is this: if I change my UK licences for an EASA licence what do I do about the FAA piggy-backed licence? Do I have to do anything with the FAA?
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I'm sure somebody will be along soon with a proper answer, but I've been informed from the San Diego FSDO, that as long as the licence number is the same, and the only differences from JAA-EASA are slight formatting changes, it'll still be good.
As your licence retains the same number and is still issued by the UK then all should match up with what is written on the FAA licence. In any case, if you really have a UK National ICAO licence then you can still retain it.
Last edited by Whopity; 1st Jun 2013 at 06:52.
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Sapper,
Have you got that opinion from the San Diego FSDO in writing? I think it is a very logical, pragmatic opinion.
Have you got that opinion from the San Diego FSDO in writing? I think it is a very logical, pragmatic opinion.
Last edited by beerdrinker; 1st Jun 2013 at 08:49.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 1st Jun 2013 at 10:26.
So long as you can produce a valid licence showing the correct licence number then nobody can say anything different. In the case of an upgrade from PPL to CPL, the CPL still contains the original PPL privileges, however; in my case the number changed from 5 to 8 digits so I did have to get a new FAA licence.
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@beerdrinker
Yes, I have it in email form addressed from a FSDO employee (an "AFS aviation safety assistant", or something) giving his name.
I don't want to take any credit, as this was forwarded to me from someone I know who does a lot of flying out there (he's UK based, flying on a §61.75) and who got them to put it in writing.
Yes, I have it in email form addressed from a FSDO employee (an "AFS aviation safety assistant", or something) giving his name.
I don't want to take any credit, as this was forwarded to me from someone I know who does a lot of flying out there (he's UK based, flying on a §61.75) and who got them to put it in writing.
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I've not had it in writing, but that was also the line I got from various people in FAAland when my licence went from PP/xxxxx to CP/xxxxx. I've also heard from various people in the UK that this is cobblers and I need to get a new 61.75. I haven't, and rented in Arizona last month on my CPL + 61.75 which was issued on the back of my older PPL which had the same number. I have always been entirely open about the change over there, and nobody has cared - they've been happy to do checkouts, BFRs and rentals.
Lets be honest, flying N reg in Europe on a 61.75 is not what 61.75 was intended for. No-one (on either side of the pond) really knows the definitive answers to many questions.
All you can do is try and follow the intent of the regulations.
Would the people pushing the idea that you need a new 61.75 when you change to EASA FCL have an reason for this??
Sapperkenno, any chance of a copy of the email if we PM you??
Last edited by Bob Upanddown; 1st Jun 2013 at 11:45.
Would the people pushing the idea that you need a new 61.75 when you change to EASA FCL have an reason for this??
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Reading this thread, something leapt out at me, the op is asking about uk caa to easa, sappers reply, whilst pragmatic, refers to jar to easa.
I havent done my uk ppl to easa conversion yet (and never had a jar) so I cant comment except to say, I bet the easa licence number is dfferent to the uk ppl, and its certainly a different regime and a change in priveleges, so my concern would be that it was a material change and a new 61.75 would have to be done. Jar to easa - sure, same thing really as sapper suggests. Cant see the faa being bothered about jar to easa, but could see uk national to easa being treated differently. Do you have English Proficient on your 61.75? That came in a while back and if you are using it outside usa you need that endorsement if I remember correctly, so you may have a second reason to consder getting a reissue. You probably already knew that but others reading this looking for advice may not and you mught just have had your 61.75 issued before it mattered if you have a uk national licence rather than jar.
I havent done my uk ppl to easa conversion yet (and never had a jar) so I cant comment except to say, I bet the easa licence number is dfferent to the uk ppl, and its certainly a different regime and a change in priveleges, so my concern would be that it was a material change and a new 61.75 would have to be done. Jar to easa - sure, same thing really as sapper suggests. Cant see the faa being bothered about jar to easa, but could see uk national to easa being treated differently. Do you have English Proficient on your 61.75? That came in a while back and if you are using it outside usa you need that endorsement if I remember correctly, so you may have a second reason to consder getting a reissue. You probably already knew that but others reading this looking for advice may not and you mught just have had your 61.75 issued before it mattered if you have a uk national licence rather than jar.
I changed address in 2006, and the CAA gave me a new number to replace my 1987 Licence, on which my US 61.75 had been issued in 1987.
I phoned two FSDOs, Phoenix and Denver, and both said I would have to re-apply.
I went through the process, and took my letter etc to Denver.
The Inspector said I already had a US 61.75, which had not been revoked, and I couldn't be issued with a second one.
I just stood there, saying nothing.
After a long pause, he said he would ask someone.
The outcome was my old 61.75 was re-validated on the new number.
I phoned two FSDOs, Phoenix and Denver, and both said I would have to re-apply.
I went through the process, and took my letter etc to Denver.
The Inspector said I already had a US 61.75, which had not been revoked, and I couldn't be issued with a second one.
I just stood there, saying nothing.
After a long pause, he said he would ask someone.
The outcome was my old 61.75 was re-validated on the new number.
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 2nd Jun 2013 at 20:48. Reason: add 7
I have transferred from a JAR PPL to a UK NPPL but it retains the same number.
So as it's got the same number, will the folk in FAA land (where I am going in a couple of weeks) continue to recognise my "on the basis of" photo of Orville and Wilbur ??
(Don't worry I have no intention of flying illegally).
Right now they are happy to let me fly round Florida with an instructor in the RH seat but say I cannot book the hours as I don't have an ICAO license and without US Citizenship cannot be P/ut as I can't do any "training" without a TSA approval.
Maybe if I convince them per para 2 above I can claim the hours as P1/S ?
So as it's got the same number, will the folk in FAA land (where I am going in a couple of weeks) continue to recognise my "on the basis of" photo of Orville and Wilbur ??
(Don't worry I have no intention of flying illegally).
Right now they are happy to let me fly round Florida with an instructor in the RH seat but say I cannot book the hours as I don't have an ICAO license and without US Citizenship cannot be P/ut as I can't do any "training" without a TSA approval.
Maybe if I convince them per para 2 above I can claim the hours as P1/S ?
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 3rd Jun 2013 at 15:32.
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You can do training without TSA approval as long as it is not towards the issue of a new rating or licence.
There's nothing wrong with logging it as P/UT. You certainly can't log it as P1/S - that's only for the successful completion of a flight test.
There's nothing wrong with logging it as P/UT. You certainly can't log it as P1/S - that's only for the successful completion of a flight test.
Last edited by stevelup; 3rd Jun 2013 at 14:32.
Not in the US apparently (I am assured by many an FAA instructor who has subsequently endorsed my book as such). It is perfectly permissible (if one is sole manipulator of the controls) to book the time as P1/S where the instructor is overall commander and gets to also book P1.
i.e. unlike the UK, you both get the hours.
(Y'know if I had a pound for every different interpretation of the rules I have come across in my time around the world, I would be able to afford another hour in the DA-40).
i.e. unlike the UK, you both get the hours.
(Y'know if I had a pound for every different interpretation of the rules I have come across in my time around the world, I would be able to afford another hour in the DA-40).
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 3rd Jun 2013 at 14:43.
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It's a moot point if they won't agree that you can undertake training flights without TSA approval...
Why can't you just be P1 and take the other guy as a passenger? Are you actually receiving instruction - does the other guy -need- to be there from a legal point of view?
Why can't you just be P1 and take the other guy as a passenger? Are you actually receiving instruction - does the other guy -need- to be there from a legal point of view?
Steve,
My point (tongue in cheek having read the posts above) is that if the FAA are happy to honour a piggy back as long as a license has the same NUMBERS (and don't bother about PP or CP etc. in front of them) .... well mine has the same numbers but is an NPPL not a PPL so is non ICAO (like a US Sport Pilot) and not capable of carrying a piggy back.
I was musing as to whether I could I just rock up holding it and the piggy back and if the numbers were the same whether they'd give me a check ride and let me out on my own. I am not about to commit that level of illegality anyway.
The next point was that the guys I am booked with didn't think I could book the hours as anything, for the reasons I set out above. .... and with which we both disagree.
My point (tongue in cheek having read the posts above) is that if the FAA are happy to honour a piggy back as long as a license has the same NUMBERS (and don't bother about PP or CP etc. in front of them) .... well mine has the same numbers but is an NPPL not a PPL so is non ICAO (like a US Sport Pilot) and not capable of carrying a piggy back.
I was musing as to whether I could I just rock up holding it and the piggy back and if the numbers were the same whether they'd give me a check ride and let me out on my own. I am not about to commit that level of illegality anyway.
The next point was that the guys I am booked with didn't think I could book the hours as anything, for the reasons I set out above. .... and with which we both disagree.
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Dave, Im guessing you may have moved to the nppl becaus of the ease of medical? Does anything prevent you renewing your jar ppl? Is it still in date? Even if you are not current and have no jar/easa medical the licence would still valid to base a 61.75 upon if in date and not revoked, and a class 3 faa medical (which is relatively pragmatic) and a bfr would have you legal as pilot in command
Easy to confuse p1s with pilot in command, same concept but p1s is specific, the faa allow logging pilot in command whilst operating what we would call dual when you are appropriately rated for that aircraft and acting as pic, even with an instructor. What all those instructors said is quite correct, and I have a pic faa column in my logbook for that reason, but if you dont hold an icao licence/valid 61.75, how can you log anything except dual?
I can see why a school wouldnt want to let you log hours, the onus would be on them in a tsa inspection to show they werent training you for an initial faa licence, and as correctly stated here, the 61.75 isnt an initial licence as far as tsa are concerned. You couldnt be doing differences training or similar, bfr for example, as you dont technically have a valid licence. Actually, they cant stop you logging the hours, but they can refuse to countersign the hours so youd struggle to use the hours to count for much, but keep the invoices that say dual hours and you could at least peove youd flown them if it really mattered to you. Thays probably the best you can do unless you bite the bullet and get your easa/jar sep land reissued.
Easy to confuse p1s with pilot in command, same concept but p1s is specific, the faa allow logging pilot in command whilst operating what we would call dual when you are appropriately rated for that aircraft and acting as pic, even with an instructor. What all those instructors said is quite correct, and I have a pic faa column in my logbook for that reason, but if you dont hold an icao licence/valid 61.75, how can you log anything except dual?
I can see why a school wouldnt want to let you log hours, the onus would be on them in a tsa inspection to show they werent training you for an initial faa licence, and as correctly stated here, the 61.75 isnt an initial licence as far as tsa are concerned. You couldnt be doing differences training or similar, bfr for example, as you dont technically have a valid licence. Actually, they cant stop you logging the hours, but they can refuse to countersign the hours so youd struggle to use the hours to count for much, but keep the invoices that say dual hours and you could at least peove youd flown them if it really mattered to you. Thays probably the best you can do unless you bite the bullet and get your easa/jar sep land reissued.
Yes the NPPL / Medical Dec route was because I had my class 2 revoked on a moot point over a couple of percent LVEF. CAA/JAR insist on 50% min, FAA on 40% min, mine is about 45%. In theory I could have gone for a full FAA but may have needed to go to Oaklahoma City for an initial medical.
Anyway medicals were costing me a couple of hundred quid a year .. why not have a 5 year valid self declaration signed by my GP ? Pays for some more flying as a VFR daylight sightseer.
As I said there are interpretations and interpretations. One that has been used more than once is that I am qualified and rated on the class of aeroplane (just not necessarily in the place I am flying) but the flight is legalised because an Instructor sits next to me so I can have P1s if the flight is under FAA rules (obviously doesn't work in JAR/CAA/EASA land).
I am not hour building, just want my book to be a record of the places I have flown and the hours I have done and I'd like to put Oka Locka, Marathon and anywhere else I get to in it. I don't much care in what capacity.
Anyway medicals were costing me a couple of hundred quid a year .. why not have a 5 year valid self declaration signed by my GP ? Pays for some more flying as a VFR daylight sightseer.
As I said there are interpretations and interpretations. One that has been used more than once is that I am qualified and rated on the class of aeroplane (just not necessarily in the place I am flying) but the flight is legalised because an Instructor sits next to me so I can have P1s if the flight is under FAA rules (obviously doesn't work in JAR/CAA/EASA land).
I am not hour building, just want my book to be a record of the places I have flown and the hours I have done and I'd like to put Oka Locka, Marathon and anywhere else I get to in it. I don't much care in what capacity.
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 4th Jun 2013 at 12:13.
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The only time you can log p1s is a sucessful flight test with an examiner. Your situation is put in uk parlance and dual in faa land, and nothing to stop you writing up your logbook in that fashion, but like I said, you may find the instructor reluctant to countersign it. As far as he is concerned its logged as sightseeing. You arent qualified because, as you say, your licence is a uk nppl, so there is no way to log it as p1(Uk) or pic(FAA), if you need the instructor then its put, cant see any interpretatation that works any other way in that situation, sorry. But what does that matter, if you dont need to use the hours anyhow, write them up as dual, and go and enjoy yourself. Opa locka is a good place to visit, also, try tamiami, winter haven, venice, I also enjoyed going to Arcadia, a one horse airport if ever there was one. If you enjoy a workout, try going to Sarasota when they are busy. Hope you have fun...