Of course you read the NOTAMS.....
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: Cambridge
There are at least a couple of comps on at Lasham - looking at their website the Regionals scrubbed on the ground (ie didn't fly) and the Nationals launched and scrubbed in the air.
The BGA attempt to broadcast tasks seems like a good idea. The big problem is that quite often tasks aren't known until an hour or so before launch, so at 0800 the task hasn't been set.
I don't think anybody is claiming more 'rights' than anyone else to class G - merely pointing out that on good days (today is not one) the traffic density of gliders can be very high in certain places. (Above the Cu is not usually one of them!) My experience is that on good days the number of gliders I see in the places I fly outnumber powered aircraft by a factor of two or three, and that's before you have a couple of comps with 50 gliders each.
But yes, glider pilots should call before entering an ATZ. It's the law amongst other things.
The BGA attempt to broadcast tasks seems like a good idea. The big problem is that quite often tasks aren't known until an hour or so before launch, so at 0800 the task hasn't been set.
I don't think anybody is claiming more 'rights' than anyone else to class G - merely pointing out that on good days (today is not one) the traffic density of gliders can be very high in certain places. (Above the Cu is not usually one of them!) My experience is that on good days the number of gliders I see in the places I fly outnumber powered aircraft by a factor of two or three, and that's before you have a couple of comps with 50 gliders each.
But yes, glider pilots should call before entering an ATZ. It's the law amongst other things.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 639
Likes: 4
From: Mare Imbrium
I don't think anybody is claiming more 'rights' than anyone else to class G - merely pointing out that on good days (today is not one) the traffic density of gliders can be very high in certain places
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Glider pilots will announce their entry into cloud on 130.4 - so it's worth keeping an ear open on this if you are IMC when there are likely to be gliders around.
The only equipment a glider is required to have to fly in cloud (unless it's changed in the last few years) is:
Quote:
No glider shall enter cloud unless all its occupants are wearing parachutes and have been instructed in their use.
OC619
The only equipment a glider is required to have to fly in cloud (unless it's changed in the last few years) is:
Quote:
No glider shall enter cloud unless all its occupants are wearing parachutes and have been instructed in their use.
OC619
Point two:
A pet peeve of mine is this dedicated frequency business. Not just gliders either. Microlights seem to speak to each other on 119.825? Gliders on 130.4 Para drop a/c on 119.9 and the rest of GA on various freqs depending on whether the sun is shining or not. If this dedicated freq thing is extended a bit perhaps twins would like a freq to themselves? Maybe Cessnas & Piper a freq each.
If you enter an ATZ or are about to, then you select theirs. If you are OCAS you are free to select anyone that takes your fancy, up here in Class G that could be Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leuchars Mil, Scottish Info, Safetycom or nobody. Personally I think OCAS there should be either Scottish or London info or non radio unless requested otherwise, then at least the "Info" controller would have some idea of who he can give his info to. I'm not suggesting we should be "controlled" just that we should all be singing from the same page.
Shirley if there are "Sector controllers" there should be "Sector frequencies" to match.
Comments? or Flak?
Last edited by Crash one; 29th May 2013 at 19:21.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
Tim and others who are puzzled by the BGA presentation of tasks on their website, the poor dears are doing their best! It is rather the same as herding cats, or trying to fit a large pillow into a very small pillowcase....orderly presentation at eight am on the BGA website of the tasks set for a day as compared to what actually takes place MUST be taken with a certain uncertainty.
There is are two classes of competition being run at Lasham this 9 day period. Nearly 100 gliders will take part. After the weather gurus have consulted their rhunes, tephigrams, flow charts and looked out the window, they then present their best forecasts to the tasksetters. Who will choose not just one task, but Task A, Task B, and Task C, for each of the two classes; if it turns out worse than forecast, they fall back appropriately, or indeed launch and then scrub when the gliders are airborne but nobody has started yet.
How anyone can hope to clearly state on a BGA website at 8 in the morning what task they will actually fly, if any, I sure wouldn't count on it. Although gliders in the UK are permitted to fly above cloud (if they can get there!) it is certainly a NO NO before the start of the comp, and also within a certain radius, and usually cloud flying is only practiced by guys whose other job is usually in the pointy end of something a lot bigger and a lot noiser. So they are exceedingly careful, usually IR, with bells and whistles in the cockpit, Flarm, tecas, and all sorts.
As for fumo in flammen's justified rant about some gliders violating airspace, or exhibiting contempt for ATZ's, I've seen it myself from time to time. I've also seen very brave spamcan drivers noodle across our winching activities.
There are a lot of geriatrics or idiots flying every sort of machine. The only real protection we all have is a VERY GOOD LOOKOUT.
Was it back in 1990's or so that they started to make us all hand in data loggers after flying a comp? and woe to the pilot who had busted ANY sort of airspace. There is no hiding place any more for glider pilots taking part in competition. They will be done, heavily penalised, publicly rebuked, and disqualified if they do it again, which usually works....it did for me, anyhow.
There is are two classes of competition being run at Lasham this 9 day period. Nearly 100 gliders will take part. After the weather gurus have consulted their rhunes, tephigrams, flow charts and looked out the window, they then present their best forecasts to the tasksetters. Who will choose not just one task, but Task A, Task B, and Task C, for each of the two classes; if it turns out worse than forecast, they fall back appropriately, or indeed launch and then scrub when the gliders are airborne but nobody has started yet.
How anyone can hope to clearly state on a BGA website at 8 in the morning what task they will actually fly, if any, I sure wouldn't count on it. Although gliders in the UK are permitted to fly above cloud (if they can get there!) it is certainly a NO NO before the start of the comp, and also within a certain radius, and usually cloud flying is only practiced by guys whose other job is usually in the pointy end of something a lot bigger and a lot noiser. So they are exceedingly careful, usually IR, with bells and whistles in the cockpit, Flarm, tecas, and all sorts.
As for fumo in flammen's justified rant about some gliders violating airspace, or exhibiting contempt for ATZ's, I've seen it myself from time to time. I've also seen very brave spamcan drivers noodle across our winching activities.
There are a lot of geriatrics or idiots flying every sort of machine. The only real protection we all have is a VERY GOOD LOOKOUT.
Was it back in 1990's or so that they started to make us all hand in data loggers after flying a comp? and woe to the pilot who had busted ANY sort of airspace. There is no hiding place any more for glider pilots taking part in competition. They will be done, heavily penalised, publicly rebuked, and disqualified if they do it again, which usually works....it did for me, anyhow.
Last edited by mary meagher; 30th May 2013 at 07:22.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: just to the left of the filing cabinet
Whilst I appreciate the BGA's efforts in trying to provide more information to the wider GA community, I can't see any practical advantage unless the extra information can be available within a realistic time frame ie first thing in the morning - and I do understand why this is not possible.
A typical GA pilot will check NOTAMs and phone the AIS info line before they set off; being directed to a web site which may or may not have further info about several different routes, which in turn may or may not be used, actually makes matters worse in my view.
The whole point of the NOTAM system must surely be that relevant information is pulled together in one place, not dispersed to a variety of web sites which may or may not be up to date. Sometimes simple is better!
A typical GA pilot will check NOTAMs and phone the AIS info line before they set off; being directed to a web site which may or may not have further info about several different routes, which in turn may or may not be used, actually makes matters worse in my view.
The whole point of the NOTAM system must surely be that relevant information is pulled together in one place, not dispersed to a variety of web sites which may or may not be up to date. Sometimes simple is better!
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,116
Likes: 1,091
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
The whole point of the NOTAM system must surely be that relevant information is pulled together in one place, not dispersed to a variety of web sites which may or may not be up to date. Sometimes simple is better!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
Does the BGA, or the task setter, also communicate the actual task, and any updates to the task, to the regional FIS provider, and to any nearby fields which may be affected? I remember a flight in Germany where the FIS controller noted that my intended routing and altitude would take me straight through a task route and warned me about that. So I was able to climb above the first layer of CU and that kept me well clear.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
From: Oxford
I'm not sure i have the answer to this, but I think gliding is a bit like alcohol (and no, I don't mean addictive, though Mary may differ!). If it was invented now, it wouldn't be allowed - or at least a lot of the things we accept because they've always happened, like gliders in cloud without complying with IFR, and massive multiple launches without proper NOTAMs (I.e. without a NOTAM which is specific about the location, numbers, routes) wouldn't be. Gliders are even allowed in class A airspace with prior agreement, where I am most definitely not welcome without an IR.
I do understand the difficulty of specifying the task until the wx is known, but I am also baffled by the use of discrete frequencies. Why on earth wouldn't gliders entering cloud above Lasham announce this to Farnborough? It's as though the assumption is the only other people around are other gliders. Farnborough were blissfully unaware that the day's task had been abandoned and were clearly only going from the NOTAM, information they and I had before I took off.
Tim
I do understand the difficulty of specifying the task until the wx is known, but I am also baffled by the use of discrete frequencies. Why on earth wouldn't gliders entering cloud above Lasham announce this to Farnborough? It's as though the assumption is the only other people around are other gliders. Farnborough were blissfully unaware that the day's task had been abandoned and were clearly only going from the NOTAM, information they and I had before I took off.
Tim
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 1
From: Hotel Gypsy
I see the BGA NOTAMs as being no different to those we get about military exercises - be aware, something slightly different is going on.
All the other stuff is sort of valid in that we all have to share the sky. Yes, it would be nice for gliders to carry strobes, Mode S etc and, personally, I get the heebie-jeebies thinking about 'invisible' aircraft operating in the same cloud I may be in. This is all about personal risk mitigation and we should adjust accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't be cloud-hopping if I knew a competition was taking place.
PS. I flew a Twinstar to the East of Bicester the other day and was being overtaken by a glider.
All the other stuff is sort of valid in that we all have to share the sky. Yes, it would be nice for gliders to carry strobes, Mode S etc and, personally, I get the heebie-jeebies thinking about 'invisible' aircraft operating in the same cloud I may be in. This is all about personal risk mitigation and we should adjust accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't be cloud-hopping if I knew a competition was taking place.
PS. I flew a Twinstar to the East of Bicester the other day and was being overtaken by a glider.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 523
Likes: 1
From: Kent
Tolerance at it's best. I don't understand the animosity between different users of the same space - examples where it works well are:
Although I haven't been in a glider for a couple of years I (along with many others) have heard the argument from both sides. The sky is big enough for everyone to share - given a little consideration on both sides.
Personally I think Balloonists should be banned
OC619
- Motorists on Cyclists: Cyclists should have registration plates and insurance for when they scratch my car. They're a danger to themselves and other road users. AND they don't pay road tax.
- Cyclists on Motorists: Motorists should be more considerate and give cyclists loads of space - in case one falls off. They cause loads of pollution as well.
- Power Boaters on Sailors: Don't understand why you'd want to sail - 5 knots max and you can't even go in a straight line. Also they make life difficult for me in harbours - constantly requiring me to give way.
- Sailors on Power Boaters: What's the attraction of power boats - just a car on water. Noisy, smelly, polluting. Most of them don't understand how a boat works and show no skill at handling one or knowledge of nautical laws.
Although I haven't been in a glider for a couple of years I (along with many others) have heard the argument from both sides. The sky is big enough for everyone to share - given a little consideration on both sides.
Personally I think Balloonists should be banned
OC619
Last edited by OpenCirrus619; 30th May 2013 at 09:58.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
From: Oxford
I did wonder about the decision to return IFR yesterday but the cloud base was <2000 and there were plenty of gaps, plus the cloud base at home was 1200ft and deteriorating (we actually broke out at 600ft on approach) so I'd have had to go IFR at some point. I suppose I could have gone VFR and routed west of Lasham but I'm not sure that would have been safer - at 4000 I was at least likely to be higher than the gliders as far as I could work out.
Tim
Tim
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
CGB
I had a near miss with a glider while descending through cloud OCAS in a piston twin!
Close enough to see him flash past in solid cloud so very close!
There was a long thread on my incident so I do not want to start that up again but it does seem double standards that a beautifully built and kitted out home built cannot cloud fly while a minimally equipped glider with an untrained instrument pilot can legally do so!
On top of that they are allowed privalages with airspace which we are not!
On the other hand we are so restricted in aviation that we do not need more restrictions added to our gliding fraternity.
Freedom of flight springs to mind powered or unpowered!Sadly the freedom bit is getting less and less
Pace
I had a near miss with a glider while descending through cloud OCAS in a piston twin!
Close enough to see him flash past in solid cloud so very close!
There was a long thread on my incident so I do not want to start that up again but it does seem double standards that a beautifully built and kitted out home built cannot cloud fly while a minimally equipped glider with an untrained instrument pilot can legally do so!
On top of that they are allowed privalages with airspace which we are not!
On the other hand we are so restricted in aviation that we do not need more restrictions added to our gliding fraternity.
Freedom of flight springs to mind powered or unpowered!Sadly the freedom bit is getting less and less
Pace
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
IMC in permit types which is keeping me in spamcans, at least for now.
Yet the glider equipped with literally nothing can legally go there un announced
One law for one another law for another.
But that is aviation there is no sense in some of the regulations!
I really do not want to restrict gliders but just a level playing field please
Pace
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
Yes and those permit Types can be beautifully kitted out with panels that would do justice to an Airbus 
Yet the glider equipped with literally nothing can legally go there un announced
One law for one another law for another.
But that is aviation there is no sense in some of the regulations!
Yet the glider equipped with literally nothing can legally go there un announced
One law for one another law for another.
But that is aviation there is no sense in some of the regulations!
- IFR capable certified aircraft have to obey rules about things that might include instrumentation, structural strenth, lightning resistance and so on that are of more relevance inside cloud than out
- uncertified aircraft don't have to obey these rules so are more likely to fall apart in clouds so aren't allowed in them
- it doesn't matter if gliders fall apart in cloud because the pilot is wearing a parachute.
If any of that makes any sense then that might be part of your missing logic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
From: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
it doesn't matter if gliders fall apart in cloud because the pilot is wearing a parachute.
There may then be a change in the law.Crash one, I agree about dedicated frequencies isolating certain branches of aviation reducing the safety benefit but at least the parachute operators are usually talking to a local radar or FIS frequency on box 2.
D.O.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
Gertrude the W
I understand your point but do not forget that in FAA land home builds are allowed to fly in cloud and on instruments and have done so for years.
Composites Gliders or Home builds are threatened by lightning strikes but not all home builds (like the RV range are composites)
You mention glider pilots wearing parachutes? Not much good to me had I hit the glider I past in cloud!!! or to him had I hit him head on.
Many home builds are now fitted with BRS
One rule for one???
Pace
I understand your point but do not forget that in FAA land home builds are allowed to fly in cloud and on instruments and have done so for years.
Composites Gliders or Home builds are threatened by lightning strikes but not all home builds (like the RV range are composites)
You mention glider pilots wearing parachutes? Not much good to me had I hit the glider I past in cloud!!! or to him had I hit him head on.
Many home builds are now fitted with BRS
One rule for one???
Pace
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
gliders in IMC
I thought gliders were only allowed to fly in IMC either OCAS or in RA(T)s (normally poking up through Class A into the Class C).
In the first case, the UK IFRs provide virtually no collision avoidance value (and in fact forcing all aircraft of various speeds to into narrow altitude bands rather than random altitudes statistically increases collision risk). In the second case, the airspace is given over to glider ops and enroute powered IFR doesn't use the airspace.
As such, a glider in Class G IMC is no better or no worse than a spam can not squawking (and only marginally worse than a mode A only - and even then, only if the aircraft about to hit it has TCAS or PCAS or is in receipt of a radar service).
As far as I am aware gliders in the normal course of events are not allowed to fly under IFR in CAS nor are they allowed to shoot approaches under IFR (and Newton seems to have a law about them executing missed approaches
). As such, it seems perfectly reasonable that they don't meet the certification requirements for IFR operations (which for powered is either certified VFR only or certified for ALL IFR ops (RNAV, MNPS, RVSM excluded)).
I am not a glider pilot, but my understanding is they sink at a much slower rate in a spin, are less likely to overspeed in a loss of control, are easier to maintain up right in IMC, and in the end, are reasonably easy to bail out of and likely to do minimal damage on the ground - so all an all it seems reasonable to fly in IMC with less training than a full IR or IMCr and a parachute.
I do have sympathy for the PFA types which are fully tricked out with highly capable systems but due to their nature are not allowed to operate IFR in the UK and would agree, there doesn't seem to be a problem in States that do allow these aricraft to operate IFR.
In the first case, the UK IFRs provide virtually no collision avoidance value (and in fact forcing all aircraft of various speeds to into narrow altitude bands rather than random altitudes statistically increases collision risk). In the second case, the airspace is given over to glider ops and enroute powered IFR doesn't use the airspace.
As such, a glider in Class G IMC is no better or no worse than a spam can not squawking (and only marginally worse than a mode A only - and even then, only if the aircraft about to hit it has TCAS or PCAS or is in receipt of a radar service).
As far as I am aware gliders in the normal course of events are not allowed to fly under IFR in CAS nor are they allowed to shoot approaches under IFR (and Newton seems to have a law about them executing missed approaches
). As such, it seems perfectly reasonable that they don't meet the certification requirements for IFR operations (which for powered is either certified VFR only or certified for ALL IFR ops (RNAV, MNPS, RVSM excluded)).I am not a glider pilot, but my understanding is they sink at a much slower rate in a spin, are less likely to overspeed in a loss of control, are easier to maintain up right in IMC, and in the end, are reasonably easy to bail out of and likely to do minimal damage on the ground - so all an all it seems reasonable to fly in IMC with less training than a full IR or IMCr and a parachute.
I do have sympathy for the PFA types which are fully tricked out with highly capable systems but due to their nature are not allowed to operate IFR in the UK and would agree, there doesn't seem to be a problem in States that do allow these aricraft to operate IFR.